Vernon Brown: 0:00

Hey there and welcome back to Conversations at the Well. Today we are talking about a difficult topic that I fail at in just about, it seems, every domain of life which is finishing. Well, I like to think of myself as a great starter. I can get things started. I can get them to where you can notice change, notice a difference. But when it comes time to button that thing on up and finish the job, that's really where things fall apart. What about for you?

Desiree Brown: 0:26

Well, who are you first?

Vernon Brown: 0:27

Huh, what's your name, vernon?

Desiree Brown: 0:29

Okay, we're like episode 30. They know me now Okay, but for the new people?

Vernon Brown: 0:33

Okay who are you, you introduce me.

Desiree Brown: 0:36

Okay, well, this is my amazing husband. He's very handsome and he's very smart and his name is vernon brown.

Vernon Brown: 0:43

now you can introduce me this is my wife that likes to take control of the podcast desiree brown. Okay, does that satisfy you?

Desiree Brown: 0:54

no, that wasn't a good intro, but that's okay, we're gonna keep moving, oh, my goodness, she's gonna have me a written intro next week. Yes, because you have to talk about how amazing and beautiful I am all the superlatives yeah, you didn't say any of that stuff, but that's okay, I already know it about me, so we can keep going.

Vernon Brown: 1:09

This is going to be a day, so finishing strong. What does that mean to you when you hear finishing strong?

Desiree Brown: 1:14

Finishing strong, wow. Well, first of all, finishing. Finishing strong, I don't know. Is it more about finishing strong? I don't know Like, is it more about finishing strong or just finishing?

Vernon Brown: 1:27

Well, I think, I think there are two levels to it. I think the first question is do you finish? And once you've started finishing and created discipline around finishing, then it's what state in which do you? What is the state in which you finish? Do you finish at your highest and best? Do you finish being exhausted and falling across?

Desiree Brown: 1:44

the finish line. I just made it Literally.

Vernon Brown: 1:48

So I think we should aspire to finish strong, but for some people like me, the first word of just finish is a goal in and of itself.

Desiree Brown: 1:55

Yeah, we might need to start there, okay. Let's talk about finishing On finishing, because that is hard enough.

Vernon Brown: 2:01

Yeah.

Desiree Brown: 2:01

Yeah, yeah. So finishing is completing a job, a project, a task, a purpose that you were assigned to or took on yourself. Um and so, when it comes to finishing, I struggle with it as well. You've talked, know this really oh, stop it, um, but finishing. A lot goes into finishing because first of all there's the like what was the intent at the start and then what were the actions and the habits and the consistency in the process.

Vernon Brown: 2:43

I think we can start right there.

Vernon Brown: 2:45

Because, for me and I don't know if it's the same for you the definition of finishing when it's time to finish is often way different than the definition of finishing when I start. Because when you first start, you're excited, you have these high hopes, you have these dreams for yourself. I'm going to do this. You have all this motivation. You're like the bar is up here, yeah, but by the time you get through that middle area where you're beaten up and you've lost your motivation and things seem to be falling apart, it seems like the bar you hold yourself to to finish is a little bit lower, and we may not even reach that bar when we're in the middle of it. So is that the same for you, or is that a little bit different?

Desiree Brown: 3:23

Yeah, I start off excited, I start off with a lot of motivation, oh, we're going to do this, um. But I struggle with consistency. I shouldn't laugh cause it's not really funny, but I think that was just my attempt to like not cry because I don't. I don't like that part of my behavior, um. But yeah, I struggle with consistency and and follow through Um, and yeah, it's, and yeah, at some point the things just kind of um get put to the side, it gets on the back burner. I forget, um, and I think when you set out to start something, if you really have intent to finish it, well for me, I think I need to have more of a game plan on, like, what do I need to do on a daily basis or consistent basis? If it's not daily, what do I need to do to maintain even after the motivation has completely left the building?

Vernon Brown: 4:25

Yeah, and I think it starts with understanding how important finishing is, because for me, when I'm living through my life and I make the decision not to finish, it's most often because I feel comfortable with the progress that is made to get it from zero to 99, because that's a huge, monumental shift.

Vernon Brown: 4:46

But that 99 to 100, those are the small details that may not necessarily catch everyone's eye but sometimes are most impactful.

Vernon Brown: 4:55

And where I want to go with that conversation is, a lot of times we think the beginning is much more important, but it's the end in which really turns what you've done into a legacy. And so, to bring that to real life, you can start a business and you can go from zero to 75. But if you never get to the point where you can pull yourself out of the business and you've put all the infrastructure in place for other people to follow those instructions that last 5% where you've learned everything, you've done everything, now you're passing on, now you're moving from an employee to a leader, then you've pretty much, quite frankly, failed the mission of entrepreneurship because you've just created yourself another job. And so I think when we look at finishing, it doesn't seem significant because it's the smallest portion of the work that's required, but oftentimes the most impactful and important part of your work is on the back end. It's almost as if Jesus went through his entire ministry and said the whole cross thing.

Desiree Brown: 5:57

Now we're going to skip that.

Vernon Brown: 5:58

We're going to skip that, and it would have been great but he would have just been great, but I mean you know for, for those people who are being healed through his ministry and who who heard the truth. It would have been great, but he would just be a good man.

Desiree Brown: 6:12

I think you just oh, that was a, that was, that was, that's a lot yeah.

Vernon Brown: 6:17

And I mean the, the reason why I'm so. I can't say I'm passionate about it, because if you were passionate about it you would do it, but the reason and I haven't, and so the reason why it's so, it's one of those things that stick out to me is like a glaring red light. You need to work on this. You need to work on this because so many areas of life I'm great at getting the first huge and heavy lift done, but it's the going back and doing the time consuming, work, work to finish, which is why a lot of things I think in this season are good, but not great.

Desiree Brown: 6:52

yeah, oh my gosh. Okay, so, and do you want to unpack that a bit more like what are? If you don't mind sharing some of the things that you're knowing that you need to finish, but you, you, you haven't, for whatever reason, or and even you can talk about what your reasons are yeah, yeah, laziness is a really big reason in a lot of areas, but, um, so let me think, so my job, we'll take my job, for example.

Vernon Brown: 7:22

Um, I work in partnership with salespeople. So you have these salespeople who go and talk to the customer all day, every day, take them out to lunch, do all of that kind of stuff, and then once they find a deal, they bring me in to speak about the technical solution that we provide, and so it's my job to kind of parachute in. You know, sometimes I'm flying there doing presentations, yeah, literally Answering the difficult questions and trying to move them from an interested person to selling and hopefully moving that towards closure, and so that's the lion's share of my job is pulling together the content, answering the hard questions, spending time with the customers, in which I do that, and I do that very well. The 5% is the paperwork and updating Salesforce and making sure the records are up to date, filing expense reports. After all of these trips that we've had to fund ourselves, which I did get 80% of them in Good, so I just have the last trip, which was, you know, dallas and Chicago.

Desiree Brown: 8:18

But like that last 5%. I'm so happy.

Vernon Brown: 8:22

That last 5% is most critical because I can do all of this work, but at the end of the day, managers and leaders and executive officers are judging the health of the business based upon what's in the system. So I can have 20, 30 million dollar deals sitting here, but if no one knows about it, frankly, when cuts come, you look like you're a nobody because that's what it says on paper and those are the the data points that you've given other people yeah, that's interesting.

Desiree Brown: 8:52

I have a similar issue let's talk about you so I can get off this hot seat um, well, so in what I do, I talk with, I talk with people and I help them troubleshoot through problems, get measure, not measure, but I record their progress and all of that, and I have a system. My system works very well for me, but my system does not work well for the organization, in the sense of I have all my notes but I have not done the finishing work of getting it uploaded to the organizational system, and so I have my records, but others have don't have access to it, which is problematic because that's like who, if people want to know what's going on with with the people that I'm working with, they're not seeing it and so, geez, all right.

Desiree Brown: 9:43

So, yeah, yeah, I gotta go and work on that, um, you know, I don't know if I like this podcast, because this seems like conviction central this has been like a lot we just getting getting hit all over the place with our things, but but I think it's good because because we're being very vulnerable, we're being very honest about the things that we are dealing with in real time, and so I know we're not unique in these things. I know other people are also dealing with similar issues and so hopefully, as we talk through and work through this, others will find it helpful too as they navigate their life. But, man, okay. So finishing, um, we talked about the. We talked about the intent to start. At the start, we talked about the habits and consistence. Or we haven't really gotten into that habits and consistency in the middle. Tabas and consistency, or we haven't really gotten into that Tabas and consistency in the middle.

Vernon Brown: 10:46

So now that we have recognized some of the areas, it's so much easier just to point stuff out and never look at it again.

Desiree Brown: 10:53

I know and I really like this podcast because You're talking past your mic. Oh, hello. I really like this podcast because it does put us in the hot seat. So, for the same reasons. You're like I don't like this. For the same reasons, I'm like but I like this because we can't just keep ignoring things and expecting what we are doing to succeed and grow and thrive the way that they're supposed to If we're not taking the time to do it to if we're not taking the time to do it.

Vernon Brown: 11:27

And I think the topic stack too, because it was either the last podcast or the one before where we were talking about integrity to oneself, saying you're going to do change, modify something, and actually standing to your word. So, as you kind of about to move this conversation and us committing to do stuff, be a person of integrity yeah, well, I have a question.

Desiree Brown: 11:47

Um, in that same vein of talking and thinking about integrity, um, we understand that there are things that we do and some of our follow-up and reporting and stuff is not done as well as it should be done. We actually haven't finished the task because we didn't do that part. Um, are there things, habits, that you have had in the past or that you that occasionally come? I guess it's not a habit if it occasionally comes up, but are there habits from the past or actions that you have taken, like recently, that help you to finish?

Vernon Brown: 12:31

Yeah, um, so the biggest tool I have is my to-do list, which I use a system called Monday for, and it's just because there's so many things flying around, so much stuff that needs to be done both in the short term and in the long term, that it's hard to keep it all in my mind at any given time, and I've never had a steel trap of a memory, so I've always had to augment that with other tools to kind of help me offload my thoughts so I can have space to think while not losing track of the things that still need to get done.

Vernon Brown: 13:07

Um, I went through a lot of different iterations of how can I manage a to-do list Like I used to have, like you remember, blues clues, or to do we have a little notepad. Yeah, I tried that for a while, which was great and I loved writing it down, but the issue would be I would finish three on this page, four on the other, and I'm flipping back and forth and there was no way to do it. Then I'd move to one on my cell phone, but it got too long and it would like mess up over time. It's just trying to figure out how to find something that I will use, and what I found is that it's not about finding something that I will use or finding something that will work. It's about using it.

Vernon Brown: 13:41

And so building the discipline to use it consistently is really where my habit of finishing or completing tasks begins and ends, because it's not because I can't, it's not because I won't, it's most often because I've just been pulled in a different direction, or I logged out of my computer and didn't properly close out of my like, whatever it is, or I kept a random note and a word document.

Desiree Brown: 14:10

I didn't save it. There's just a piece of paper right here, or I just sent another text message and then I work from home or I work from the well, and it's not in the right place, and it's all of that.

Vernon Brown: 14:20

so I think if there's one thing that enables me to be in the best position to finish, it's that. But I think, if we're honest, our tools that we use are not really about finishing as much as they are about starting. I think finishing is a built in desire or thing that we develop within ourselves, and what I mean by that is did you make up your bet? That's finishing. Did you put your clothes away? That's finishing. Did you put your shoes back wherever they go? That's finishing. When you're finished eating or drinking a random cup of water, did it make it back into the sink or did it make it into the dishwasher Whatever you define that to be, that's finishing. And so those are more about disciplines of behavior, I think, than tasks, because you could be reminded about the task all you want. At what point do you feel like I got this done and I check it off?

Desiree Brown: 15:20

You said the word, I think.

Vernon Brown: 15:22

Check it off.

Desiree Brown: 15:23

No, it was before that. Discipline. I think discipline is probably going to be the theme of this one. Integrity was the last one, discipline is this one. Oh my gosh, here we go.

Vernon Brown: 15:35

Yeah.

Desiree Brown: 15:36

So discipline, I think? I think you're right it is. Those are really good starting tools, but what is going to keep you, what's going to help you get that thing?

Vernon Brown: 15:49

actually checked off.

Desiree Brown: 15:50

So having note of it is a great first step.

Vernon Brown: 15:53

But you even said it wrong there. I feel We've been checking things off of our to-do list forever, but were they finished? But were they finished, like I'll put wash clothes on or or like do laundry on my thing and it'll be checked off, but did I finish? Like, at what point do you believe that you are able to check it off? And is that checked off state truly finished, or is that checked off state sufficient?

Vernon Brown: 16:21

Okay, okay, I need you to like so so yeah, a thing on my to-do list may be write a proposal for a customer, all right, so I write the proposal, make it sound real good, put all the terms and conditions in there and I check it off. Is that really done because I did the bulk of the work? I did the 90%, or should it be? I did the 90%, then I went into Salesforce and moved the status over to proposal sent Like what is finished and I think sometimes we misidentify finish yeah as something that's not really finished.

Vernon Brown: 16:58

Like I could say, and I'm sure in a to-do list somewhere, paint the ceiling in the studio is marked off as done. It ain't finished here, it's finished up there where most people go. Yeah, but back here is jacked up. And so what does finished mean? Like, I'm sure on a to-do list it was. You know, we drywalled this wall, back here is jacked up. And so what does finished mean? Like I'm sure on a to-do list it was. You know, we drywalled this wall back here and painted it and I haven't marked off as finished.

Vernon Brown: 17:18

But right above that camera line you'll see it's not finished and so I think I think you're right that it has to do with our to-do list, but it also has to do with what that means when we say things are finished, and does that truly mean the job is done or it's passable? What grade would you get, like, for this wall? It's about 95% done, maybe 75, but it's marked off as finished and we started recording. And if we never had this conversation or you never made a fuss about it, it probably would stay that way for a really, really long time. And so what does finished mean? Because there's been a laundry list of things checked off, but were they finished?

Desiree Brown: 18:04

Yeah, I think, and I think each individual will have to determine how they're, how they measure, finish, because for me, I think part of my issue is that I'm trying to make it perfect.

Vernon Brown: 18:29

Hmm, oh wow, I didn't even think about that side of it, cause I'm never striving for perfection I'm.

Desiree Brown: 18:34

I'm more like oh okay, like it takes me so long to write emails. I hate writing emails because I'm trying to make sure that what I have communicated is, or what I'm trying to communicate is coming through, like and it's a tone right, and all of that kind of stuff, um, that matters to me, and misspellings and all that kind of stuff, like I'm very, um particular in that and it still comes out wrong. But there's, there's, you know it's still, it's still there, but I think for here you're like just get it done, just like done is better than perfect, and I think there is wisdom in that. I do think that there's wisdom in that because for a person like me, who's the perfection is? I'm striving for the perfection, but it's not getting done. And then there's the person who just wants it done, but it's kind of in this, whatever state, it gets done as long as you don't tilt that camera too far yeah.

Desiree Brown: 19:31

So there's some. I think there's somewhere.

Vernon Brown: 19:35

Yeah, there's somewhere in the middle there you know I've never thought of it that way, like perfection and and laboring over the details is so far from who I am that I didn't even like give any life to that perspective, because I'm just like I just need to get it off the list. But that's part of the problem. And then, in trying to get it off the list, it's like this is good enough to get to every. You can just about say everything in this building is good enough for customers to come in. But is it perfect? Is it great? I think there are very few things that I could look at or think about. That I would call finished.

Desiree Brown: 20:14

Well, if we I mean and I think that's been a tension in our relationship just because we look at it differently where I know, when we were opening the place, I was like, oh, what's that? That's just a fire alarm. Ok, well, I'm glad it's. I guess it's working.

Desiree Brown: 20:30

That's good, okay, well, I'm glad it's. I guess it's working. That's good, um, but the thing that I was never. I was like it's just not, it's not done. Like the bathroom is not done, like it's not this, it's not that. And you were like can people come in? Will they be safe when they come in? Like, can they use the bathroom? I was like, well, yeah, so again it would have been delayed. We probably still wouldn't be open if it were up to me, because everything's not perfect. But we are open and it's largely because you're like let's get it to a place where we can get things moving. So I don't know, I'm kind of struggling with this on like what, where the it? The answer lies somewhere in between yeah, but I don't even know how to like and get there.

Vernon Brown: 21:14

Perhaps for us and it's probably different for for each and every listener perhaps the perfection of finished lies in the completeness of us together, and so, when you put in the desire for it to be passable from my perspective and the desire for perfection from your perspective, where those two things come together in unity is where finished is. But it takes me being open to your what I call criticism, which you call you know, opinion.

Desiree Brown: 21:54

I don't even call it, I'm just trying to help.

Vernon Brown: 21:56

So me being open to your criticism, which you call help, and you being open to my push, which you call force yeah in order to see that it's it's better together, as we always say, and like it's. It's where those two things come together, at least for us and things that we do in unity that what's best is created. But it takes me getting out of my feelings and feeling like you're just pooping over everything I want to do as soon as you walk in.

Desiree Brown: 22:25

And it takes me being confident enough to be like, okay, no matter if it's feeling, his feelings could be his feelings, but it's still not done. So we need to get done.

Vernon Brown: 22:35

Like no, that's right, that is not where we were going okay, well, tell me where we should go.

Desiree Brown: 22:40

Then we were going, is me. Where should we go, my love?

Vernon Brown: 22:44

me feeling being okay and you're not supposed to go down that road Me being okay and you providing feedback but you also coming in and saying, hey, this looks really good, I like this, I like this, I like this. I would like to provide you with some feedback, but I don't want you to take it the wrong way.

Desiree Brown: 23:06

Okay.

Vernon Brown: 23:06

Rather than this wall. I still ain't painted man, man, man man man, man.

Desiree Brown: 23:11

Get it together, or pick up a paintbrush and paint it yourself listen, I've tried that too and then okay, anyway, we're gonna continue out of that conversation. I already put it out there.

Vernon Brown: 23:23

I feel like we need to talk about it but no, I think that's serious because there we have to recognize that, especially for those of us who are married, there are things about ourself that we cannot see and we were never made to see about ourself, that God put us with that person.

Vernon Brown: 23:41

That annoys us to high heaven because they can see things that we can't see, and they are completion for us, which means that you are incomplete in and of yourself. So the moment you start to think that you know best in every area, you're literally going against the idea that God said you need somebody to complete you, and so I think the struggle and the tension for that is, from my perspective, recognizing that when you do provide feedback or, as I say, criticism, it's not out of a mean place, it's not out of a hurtful place, it's not out of a place that doesn't respect the work that's happened, but it's out of a place of I want this to be the best that it can be, and I'm not talking about your work, but I'm helping complete you in this, which I don't hear that when you're criticizing, I hear you did it wrong and I'm like like I've been in here all day while you've been getting your nails done.

Desiree Brown: 24:37

Babe, it looks amazing. I'm so like, I mean, I do. Well, I try, babe, this looks amazing because it really does not, because I'm just blowing smoke at you, but I, but I have something else to add, and then it's like I think the pause needs to be longer.

Vernon Brown: 24:55

She's like babe, this is amazing. What about that hole? I feel like you give me a praise sandwich like compliment mean and then compliment.

Desiree Brown: 25:07

But you know, I'm not mean, am I mean?

Vernon Brown: 25:11

For real, Like you're not a mean person at all. I mean, but'm not mean. Am I mean For real?

Desiree Brown: 25:13

You're not a mean person at all, but it feels mean when I say it Well it feels like it feels critical. Yeah, maybe that's the word. Yeah, yeah.

Vernon Brown: 25:21

And I mean honestly, I think, from your perspective too. Like when you're working to perfect something and I'm just like, just send it, it don't really matter, like I think that can come off as critical Maybe you would pick a different adjective but like when you're doing something and I bring my perspective or completion to it, which is like you've been sitting here at this computer for the last 45 minutes writing this four word email like send it, how does that feel for you? It feels critical, yeah, and dismissive.

Desiree Brown: 25:51

I'm sure the work that you're doing, like or something I've worked on literally for hours, because it takes me hours to do things, which is part of the reason why I have a problem finishing, because it just takes so long. Um, because I wanted to be perfect but, then I show it to you. I'm like, babe, what do you think? Because I'm proud, because I was perfect, or tried to be, and you're like, and we're talking about an email, proud of an email.

Desiree Brown: 26:15

Yeah. Or like that flyer I made the other day and I was like dang, I thought it was great. I was like babe. I was babe, look at this. You're like um, but what does it mean? Shoot, but it shoot. But it was really good feedback, like once I got over my feelings, all this work that I put into this thing. Once I got over my feelings, it was oh yeah, this is true. Like I'm, I'm I kind of missed the, the intent. Well, the intention didn't come through in how it was created, and so then I made some changes and it came out even better. I probably should engage you earlier in the process, because what I'm about to ask yeah so it's not realistic to seek help to finish everything because I send.

Vernon Brown: 27:05

I know you send one email every six hours, but I send like an email every six minutes and so I can't ask you about every single email. Although the grammar it will be grammatically much better. But, but how then? For how then could we help one another move towards a discipline of finishing more? Because I think, on one hand, it's we would be better together, but on the other hand, how do you guard against being naggy and that voice that you no longer want to hear?

Desiree Brown: 27:36

yeah, um, the short answer is I don't know, but I guess, if I think about it some more, maybe it is just simply. I think it's two things. I think it's the recognition that we have one another in our lives for a reason, and part of that reason is to like help, help one another to get to our expected end right. But the other part is even in the feedback that we get from one another, trying to have that voice in our head all like as much as possible, because as we learn one another and our feedback, like it's consistent it.

Desiree Brown: 28:31

It's like I should have already known what you were going to say about the flyer, because you would always say that type of feedback would always be given.

Desiree Brown: 28:40

So I should have been like, hmm, okay, if Vernon was here, he would probably say that da, da, da, da, da. Or if you Desiree was here, she'd probably say you need to fix those holes or whatever those holes or whatever, and so it, instead of just like kind of taking it in that moment and only using that feedback for that particular task, like remembering it even when we're completing the next task, and actually it's, it's like kind of it's kind of the difference between learning something or you know when you were in school, right, and you would like learn something, but then the test, if it was like an application test, then you had to show how you actually can apply that knowledge. I think it's getting more into that space and maybe being more intentional about like the application of the feedback consistently throughout things. So then we don't have to go to one another as much, or when we do, it's not as far off as it, um, it has been, but but I think that takes.

Vernon Brown: 29:44

I think that takes us no longer demonizing the differences between us, because I think it's easy to say she just takes forever to do things. And that's the demonizing the differences between us. Because I think it's easy to say she just takes forever to do things. And that's the demonizing approach to say it's true, takes forever to do things. But if I change the perspective from it just takes forever to it's purposeful and it's more complete when it's finished, then I can say then I can appreciate your perspective and your differences enough to lean into that and say, well, how could I do it the way you would do it? Does that make sense?

Desiree Brown: 30:16

Yeah.

Vernon Brown: 30:17

And then I also think, when it, when it does come time for us to provide unsolicited feedback, like you show me a flyer and you want my opinion, and I think having a not safe word but safe word of like hey, can I help with this, something that's like disarming, like that, to where, in some cases, maybe like no, I just want you to say it's great, ok, cool, I love it.

Vernon Brown: 30:41

Yeah, I mean I did love it, but it just could be better if you want it to achieve or accomplish the purpose that you created it for.

Desiree Brown: 30:48

That's smart because it acknowledges it, gives permission. Yeah, it gives permission.

Vernon Brown: 30:54

Um, it asks permission and then gives permission go ahead as as we get and we're not old, but as we get older, um we, we, yeah as I get older.

Vernon Brown: 31:06

I'm about to get older next week, but anyways, um. So we, we went to a few marriage conferences and did marriage counseling and all of this stuff. And I remember sitting in there and they would give us these tools and things to say I'm like that's so stupid, like what are we ever going to use that? But the longer you get into it, the more that these tools and tips and tricks and can I help you with that? Or, um, what I think I, like a big one, we use is what I think I hear you saying is this is that what you're saying? To make sure we're on the same page, like those little dumb tools freaking work because it kind of helps they're not dumb well.

Vernon Brown: 31:43

I still think they sound kind of they might be kind of corny but it works though, but they work though, so I'll be corny as we keep going through this marriage thing, like those little tool things that are are helpful and I think they really help bridge the gap between communication styles yeah, absolutely so.

Desiree Brown: 32:01

we've, uh, we talked about starting good old to-do list. It's a good way to start, um, but like, actually like the, the habits in in in between, because this is I guess we still need to get into that part. We've also talked about like the what does finish actually mean? And like how do you met, how do you know it's done? It's kind of like a measurement question Go smart goals, you know specific, measurable, attainable, achievable, that's attainable, slash, achievable, realistic, time bound or time sensitive Right, achievable, that's attainable, slash, achievable, realistic, time bound or time sensitive right. So we learn all this stuff in the like the business, corporate or organizational world, um, but for real, like it is a smart tactic to use, because to know if you have finished, you kind of need to know what it looks like.

Desiree Brown: 32:52

To finish, what, yeah, yeah, what was what? Yeah, what was? How do you measure that you've completed the task? And, um, it was actually interesting. I had a training last week and one of the questions that was asked was how do you know that you're doing a good job? I was like, oh shoot, nobody gave me, like like I've never received for anything that I do, a thing that says this is excellence. And then I mean, okay, I have the Bible, that is, that is a tool that talks about, like what I should be striving towards.

Desiree Brown: 33:28

But in my job, though, like, how do you know that you're doing a good job? And I was really like, wow, and I interestingly went into this place of, okay, well, you know, if the people that I work with understand what it is that they need to do, they are are actually doing it, um, and staying out of trouble, uh, if I am, yeah, people feel heard and and we are able to solve problems and work together, then I feel like I'm doing my job well. But I didn't even account for the fact I still need to report this stuff, the fact I need to take some notes and like log it, um, the like I need to be more organized in just my entire approach, like I didn't count all of those different things. And then the other thing the instructor was mentioning is sometimes people say, well, just know, I just have a knowing. But what? But like and maybe that's true for that person.

Desiree Brown: 34:35

But just like, how, how can you articulate that differently so that another person can understand? Or maybe in that particular case, only you need to understand because you need to know if you're doing a good job. But I think it goes along with how, how do you know you're finished? And that might be a more holistic. It may be a more holistic answer than I've typically given. Yeah, because I can say, oh, yeah, if my kids are clean and fed, if our house is still standing, you know I could say okay, okay, well, everything's okay, we're maintaining.

Vernon Brown: 35:15

But there's also levels, levels to this there's levels, but then there's also, like analysis, that we should be able to take in our life yeah to say perhaps this is the definition of finished today, but it needs to change tomorrow, like I finished it, but did the outcome happen the way I expected it to happen? And then, if not, I need to adjust a few more things, like I can say I'm finished with my day, because I asked you how you were doing and you said, fine, ok, check that box, keep going. But let's be honest, like technically that could be a checkbox. And I talked to my wife, I asked her how she was doing. She said she was fine and we finished.

Desiree Brown: 35:56

But how do you know your day is finished? Well, it's nine o'clock and it's bedtime, so I'm done.

Vernon Brown: 36:00

Yeah, meanwhile lunches haven't been made, clothes haven't been laid out Like they're still in the dry, like all of these things.

Desiree Brown: 36:07

Yeah, I.

Vernon Brown: 36:08

I think we also have to strive to be ruthlessly honest with ourself about what it is that we're doing and what it is that we're not doing, where we're hitting the mark, where we're missing the mark, and from there be able to really analyze where we are and where we need to continue growing.

Desiree Brown: 36:25

Yeah, I do have a question, oh, and this is around. Well, this is, I think, context matters. And so you know, life, life's things change.

Desiree Brown: 36:49

Sometimes, you get curve balls thrown at you that you weren't expecting and all of that, and so I'm curious your thoughts on how to manage that part in this whole finishing journey, because I think there is a. I think typically the way that that, like our approach to things or maybe probably more of your approach to things is, like you know, excellence, excellence, excellence, excellence, excellence, excellence. Sometimes it's like I'm sick or I'm tired or I'm um, there's a family situation that's kind of out of my control and it's impacting me mentally or emotionally or whatever. Like how do you account for the curve balls in the finishing journey?

Vernon Brown: 37:36

Well, if you, if you finish like I finished, historically you can see excellence, but you're not aiming anywhere near it like you're aiming for. Done for me, yeah, which needs to change more so to striving for excellence and perhaps hitting um done so. So I. One thing I love about myself, which is kind of weird to say out loud that's good.

Vernon Brown: 38:02

You should love things about yourself is to have a very sober view of what I'm doing, like it's very it's not that often that something happens as a result of something that I did that I don't foresee. Um, so if I get a call and somebody's like, hey, this is late or hey, this is you didn't do a good job, I know I didn't do a good job, like I know I was striving more for done than excellent, and so, with that, for me, when things do get difficult within it's like well, where can I cut bait? Where can I, you know, skirt around? Where which ball am I willing to drop and deal with the consequences? For even yesterday, I had a full slate of meetings. I had four key deliverables that I was supposed to get out. Three of them got out and got done. The fourth one was the decision, literally, that I'm supposed to do this. But I think they're working on it.

Vernon Brown: 38:54

But I don't want to ask and it gets dropped on me. I'm gonna roll the dice and see and then, like four o'clock, he's asking some clarifying questions like that and I knew like, based upon his questions, he was working on it. But that was a roll the dice thing which could have ended up with a call at 8 PM. Why wasn't this done? And I was willing to accept that with full visibility because I made that decision. But I think for many of us, we make decisions but don't want to look them in the eye or take ownership for them. Yeah, and because of that, we make ourselves these victims where we're really not.

Desiree Brown: 39:27

We're choosing our own path yeah, yeah, um, I had to look at myself in the mirror. I didn't like it really. Yeah, because, especially around this finishing thing, because I'm like, oh man, I promised this, I said I was gonna do that and then and it's like literally none of it's done and I was really like I was. I was real down about it. I was like god, like I need help because stuff is piling up and I feel like even more is being added and because I didn't finish the other things that were supposed to be done. Like I'm really feeling like kind of under the gun here, um, and I need like an extra dose of energy or something to get this stuff knocked out and focus.

Desiree Brown: 40:10

Focus is always something that I'm. I'm I'm trying to figure out how to be better and what tools I need to put in place to help me to focus. But, um, but what came back? God started talking to me and it was like this honesty. God said I've, I gave you the tools and you are not. I don't know why. Maybe that's how God speaks to you, but God doesn't. His voice is not like big, like that to me. But I gave you the tools and it's just you haven't been using it. So it came back to me. It's like this is your responsibility, take back up the things I told you to do, which for me, I call it the power hour. This is work. This is this is for me and it may work for you, but the power hour is four things. It's 15 minutes of each thing 15 minutes of physical activity daily, 15 minutes of prayer time daily, 15 minutes of uh, planning time so this is like writing your to-do list and things daily and 15 minutes of execution daily where's doom?

Vernon Brown: 41:17

to fail, you pray for your food for longer than 15 minutes well, it's at least 15 minutes.

Desiree Brown: 41:24

Okay, because you, because honestly, you pray long though I do, but that's fine, because that's why me and god look good, good, we, we, good, good. So actually we need to be better, and that's not my fault, I'm like, can we eat the kids?

Desiree Brown: 41:35

be over there, ribs be showing waiting for you to finish I try not to do that for like grace, but you know, but, but they're still. But these, those are my four things, and if I am able to touch all four things, as I'm holding up five fingers, if I'm able to touch all four things brother man from the.

Vernon Brown: 41:55

From the fifth floor.

Desiree Brown: 41:56

On the fifth floor uh, if I'm able to touch all four things in a day, like it, just I mean, I'm propelled throughout the day. So if you know that, it's consistency, because I'll be like, oh yeah, I got the prayer time in and I got the exercise, but oh shoot, I didn't even. I don't even know where my to-do list is, or I spent time like responding to emails, that, and completely neglected the to-do list that I had. Like there's, it seems simple, it is simple. I just haven't developed the discipline.

Vernon Brown: 42:32

All seems so simple it could all be so simple so we've harped on failure for a long time. What are we at? Probably like 30, 40 minutes yeah we have. Well, we're about to take a trip, yeah, which is a work trip, but we're hopefully going to have some fun like we'll have some fun thrown in there for this week where you can have an opportunity to hopefully reset things. How can we reset?

Desiree Brown: 43:04

Well, it's definitely a work trip then, because if I'm planning to just relax and chill and enjoy, none of that stuff's going to get done. But I think for me, Let me define reset.

Vernon Brown: 43:15

Reset isn't get all your to-do lists done. Reset is take this week to organize sorry, go ahead is to take this week to put a week in the tank of working out whatever habits you're trying to kick off or continue where you getting earrings my mom gave it to me for my birthday I know I didn't. I know anybody else you like them? I do. Yeah, I just know I didn't buy them and I bought all your stuff yeah, my mom, I asked for some earrings for my birthday there's a raul lurking around, I got two pairs of these beautiful earrings.

Desiree Brown: 43:54

Um, anyway, actually someone from college, she designs them really yeah, um, I wish I knew the name of the company right now because I shouted out, but it was like they're super cute so I was just like wait a minute.

Vernon Brown: 44:07

I didn't buy those yeah but okay, I'm sorry. Back to the top.

Desiree Brown: 44:10

Um, I don't know, I can't give me an example, I don't know.

Vernon Brown: 44:18

That's what I'm asking you, I mean, I think I think part of it is just the doing, the power hour, and yeah setting the tone for what needs to happen for you to be able to get up at whatever time you need to do that efficiently I think, um, that is a good idea.

Desiree Brown: 44:37

I think there needs to be some some time spent on refining my processes yeah, yeah, I could see that um, so you use monday.

Desiree Brown: 44:50

I would like to use monday, but the monday have set up is not working the way I need to, and so I've reverted back to my previous to-do list situation, because what I was finding is that this came actually as a result of that. I'm failing at everything. God's like, do what I asked you to do. I was like, all right, let me get this to-do list down. Monday's not working right now. Let me just write it. So I was like I, but I neglected literally my last to-do list. This is so shameful I should I don't even want to say this on camera, but my last to-do list was like two months ago. In that particular, I've been using, I've been using monday.

Desiree Brown: 45:23

It just hasn't been working like I need to yeah need it to, but, um, but the last time I actually wrote it out it's like two months. So it's been a two months period where I haven't refined the process so that I can actually make it work for me so, along those same lines, I think I'm deciding to stop dating.

Vernon Brown: 45:41

Like the prayers I write down, cause sometimes it gets really, really discouraging where you like, log in. You'd be like oh, it's been two months.

Desiree Brown: 45:49

Like stop dating them.

Vernon Brown: 45:51

Well, it's, it's. That would be to overcompensate for my failure.

Desiree Brown: 45:59

Oh well, go ahead and date again. You need to know.

Vernon Brown: 46:03

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's been bad a few times Like yeah. Sorry, God.

Desiree Brown: 46:11

Yeah, I don't. Well, I used to keep a diet. Well, I used to try to keep a diary when I was like in third grade. So I used to try to keep a diary when I was like in third grade. So it's like, dear diary, that happened today, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Then, like a year later, dear diary. I'm sorry I haven't written in so long, but I will say I'm much better with my journaling now, but it's still not perfect. I don't do it every single day, but I try. I try to like, if I'm finding that it's been several days, I try to not let a week go by, so like just having those things in place to help you to remember, to reset, because otherwise you just keep on going and you can really lose sight of it.

Vernon Brown: 46:50

Um, as we have seen in a number of different ways, so you're gonna work on your power hour this week power hour. What should I work on?

Desiree Brown: 46:59

you tell yourself. You tell me what you should work on, I told you what you should work on, oh, okay, well, um, you should review your list to see and mark out, like how much you there's like a completion thing, right, you can mark how much is and so go back to your done list and see how much stuff is actually like actually done?

Vernon Brown: 47:24

Is that like at?

Desiree Brown: 47:26

the end of the workday, or I think I think things move so fast. Well, I think ideally it would happen at like a daily thing, but I think weekly even would be better than nothing and or at least putting some time in your hey, this works. Putting some time on your calendar to like go back and see did I actually finish this? Or like is it done or is it finished? And, um, reviewing that and what you need to do, like kind of adding something to your to-do list if you found that you had something that was done but not finished.

Vernon Brown: 48:15

So that makes sense and then one thing we can do together is the. Can I help you?

Desiree Brown: 48:23

Maybe we just need to do that like weekly, like what have you done to finish this week?

Vernon Brown: 48:28

No, I'm talking about the discipline of adding that into our conversation. Oh, absolutely, it's like a phrase, because I think that would desensitize.

Desiree Brown: 48:35

How do we say it again I?

Vernon Brown: 48:36

don't remember, but I think we can work on that this week.

Desiree Brown: 48:40

Okay.

Vernon Brown: 48:41

I can think about like with the clothing rack, like.

Desiree Brown: 48:44

Tell them about the clothing rack.

Vernon Brown: 48:46

So we have t-shirts here for sale at the well and we got a bunch of different sizes. Because we don't really know what sizes people are, we don't ask them which. We're going to start asking them in the future, but we don't ask them at this point. So I just made a bunch of t-shirts and I'm working like in a sweatshop pressing these shirts and I got sweat very far from a she's like basking in sleepy land.

Desiree Brown: 49:08

I'm doing this three and four o'clock in the morning trying to get these shirts done it was like three or four o'clock in a day and it was in our beautiful kitchen.

Vernon Brown: 49:15

So there's that story sound. So I bring these things down and I was like well, what's the best way to display them? And I know, when I'm shopping I don't like. I think it's like Ross or Marshall's where everything's just thrown there and I can't find the size I want. I hate that. I much rather like know what size I want and then pick the shirt from my size. So I'm not like, oh, this is really dope and it's not in my size. Like I'm not like, oh, this is really dope and it's not in my size. Like, why do I want to do that? So I laid them out by all the small designs, all the medium designs, all the large designs, after I've worked tirelessly for hours pressing these shirts and hanging them up and doing all this work Two minutes Per shirt, no, no.

Vernon Brown: 49:53

Well, pressing them, yes, but hanging them, which was the issue Pressing them hanging them, designing them which is really hard Like I didn't think it would be that hard Ordering them, and then they sat on the shelf for months and nothing happened with them. So I do all this work and I hang them up and they're finally done after. I think we started on this project Bought the press probably no fewer than four months ago.

Vernon Brown: 50:16

Yeah, you agree with that, probably about yeah, we no fewer than four months ago, yeah, you agree with that? Um, probably about yeah, let's, we'll go three, four months ago, a long time ago, more than a quarter ago, and we finally have shirts hanging on the rack and somebody walks in with what you say is helpful. What I'll say is critical eye and says I don't like that, I think it should be different is that that what I said?

Desiree Brown: 50:38

That's what I heard. So, and what had you? What had you done? You had hung them on the rack. I had, I had ordered them, I had let them be at rest for a month. I had pressed them.

Vernon Brown: 50:49

I had hung them, I had ironed them, I had placed them neatly on the racks, on the on the hangers, and I placed the hangers neatly on the rack, organized individually by size. Yeah, and then somebody comes around the corner.

Desiree Brown: 51:08

And said are you done or are you finished? Because it looks done but it ain't finished.

Vernon Brown: 51:12

Just like that, just being rude. I didn't say that I caught an attitude and I walked out.

Desiree Brown: 51:17

I didn't say it like that, but he did catch an attitude and walked out. I was like I think all this work you did, you did and they, you know, they were finally hung in a way that makes sense, in a way.

Desiree Brown: 51:29

In a way that makes sense, but not the only way that makes sense in the best way that makes sense not necessarily because and I actually was really surprised you decided to do it that way, because when you looked at it aesthetically it was like the colors and all of that was just all mixed up and it just aesthetically looked like a lot. And usually for you you're not. You you like, like order, and I didn't see order there. And so I said I think that it should be done by type. You can still do it in sizes. It's still in sizes, but this shirt is all black.

Desiree Brown: 52:05

All these shirts are the exact same, but they're in size order, but they're all together. And then this next shirt, the same design shirt. You know like you get it because we have it hung up. I'm explaining it more for you all, but it just when you step back and look at it it's like, oh, that looks better. It doesn't look messy, because I thought it looked messy and for all of the work, here's this babe, you did an incredible amount of work look at this.

Vernon Brown: 52:31

Look at this you're trying to make it better. Look at this, try to make it better yeah, bring your arm here, babe.

Desiree Brown: 52:36

You did an incredible amount of work. Thank you so much for ordering.

Vernon Brown: 52:39

This was not said before.

Desiree Brown: 52:40

This is not, but I'm, I'm. We talked about repentance, so here we go, here we go. You did an incredible amount of work. You ordered the shirts, you designed them, you press them, you bought a heat press to do all this stuff that you did an incredible job, baby, job, baby.

Vernon Brown: 53:00

And I just I, I see that you've hung them but it's really not displaying the beauty of your work very well, which was not said.

Desiree Brown: 53:03

It was just said it was wrong, and so I really think that we should reorganize it so that we can just display it and it'll make people just like want to just buy the whole rack because it's just displayed so beautiful, beautifully. So can I rearrange things?

Vernon Brown: 53:16

it would have been much better. Because the other, because the other day I had a few people come up and they were like I just really wish these were organized by size so I can find one. Literally no one said that.

Desiree Brown: 53:24

Literally no one.

Vernon Brown: 53:25

I'm sure they were thinking it Literally no one Babe. They were thinking it.

Desiree Brown: 53:31

You did a fantastic job. Seriously, you did. It's amazing. Like I love the shirts. I'm not even like. I'm not even like, I'm not even kidding like they're.

Vernon Brown: 53:41

They're so nice, and if y'all want a shirt, we can figure out a way to.

Desiree Brown: 53:43

We can figure, I should have worn a shirt. Um, we can figure out a way to get them to you, but, um, they really do look nice and um, I just, I just wanted them to be displayed differently because I think would have went a lot better.

Vernon Brown: 53:54

Yeah, it would have. I love the work that you've done. Can I see if I can improve it or can I help?

Desiree Brown: 53:59

So in that regard, I was done, but I was not. I was not finished, I was. I didn't do it perfectly. I was, it was done, but it was not perfect. I just was like it looks a mess, let's fix it. And you were like ah.

Vernon Brown: 54:15

It was after a long day.

Desiree Brown: 54:17

Was it? It was not. I was like what happened that day? It wasn't a long day, it was just you. You were thinking of all the things that you had done, basically without any help, without, with very little input although there was input along the way just to, anyway, we could talk about the acknowledgement of my input. But all of those different things happened and I know that as you're explaining it now, like I see why that bothered you so much, I didn't get. I was like it's just. I'm just trying to help you on this right because it looks crazy. But if I had acknowledged all of the work that you have done up until that point and why I wanted to reorganize it and asked you can I reorganize it instead of? It needs to look different. The abuse it was done, but it was not perfect.

Vernon Brown: 55:10

The abuse.

Desiree Brown: 55:12

Thank you, babe.

Vernon Brown: 55:13

Thank you for making it better.

Desiree Brown: 55:15

Yeah, so I still think it's wrong, really yeah.

Vernon Brown: 55:18

Really I'll be so frustrated Like I like this shirt, but they don't have my size and Really. I just want to go to my size and see all the options and then pick from there.

Desiree Brown: 55:32

You mentioned Marshalls.

Vernon Brown: 55:34

I feel like. I feel like, though, it's just the tan shirt to make it look that way, the tan strappy ones, like if that wasn't there it'd be fine but you, I don't know, babe, because you've mentioned marshalls, and when I go in there I do not feel a calming effect at all.

Desiree Brown: 55:51

I'm like, oh, this is too much, everything's everywhere, yeah, so I'm very that's very interesting, because you're usually like, no, I want all my colors to look the same, actually the.

Vernon Brown: 55:59

I think about it. I think that actually weakens my argument, because I think Marshall's is set up the way you were saying.

Desiree Brown: 56:05

No, it's the way yours is set up by size, not by yeah, yeah, and you're like that's a poor example.

Vernon Brown: 56:11

to bolster my point.

Desiree Brown: 56:12

Oh, ok, ok, yeah, yeah, anyway. So this is a very long conversation and apparently we're not finishing strong on this one and we need to figure out how to finish strong. So, um, how do we finish strong this in this way? What are our key takeaways for our audience?

Vernon Brown: 56:30

well, I think we didn't even talk about finishing strong on this one.

Vernon Brown: 56:34

We talked just about finishing period okay, I'm not even to the point of finishing strong, but I have some really good notes on our next episode about finishing period, because I'm not even to the point of finishing strong, but I have some really good notes on our next episode about finishing strong. Just kind of talking about some of the people who we've seen physically finish strong in the, the results of those. But as it pertains to just finishing, I think a few of the things we've talked about is number one, recognizing what it means to truly finish to you. And even better if you have someone connected to you that can show you and help you find the balance between your thoughts and their thoughts, to find the happy medium in between. I think that's really good.

Vernon Brown: 57:10

Number two is challenging when you put the checkmark on things. Is this really finished or did I just do 95% and is 95% enough? And then, third and finally, um, giving people the space to hold you accountable to what it is that you say you want to do. If you feel, and you believe that there's value in in finishing, you can rely upon your own willpower. But your own willpower got you here where you want and feel like you need to do a better job of finishing, so seeing if you can have a community or a group of people or even a person that can hold you accountable to not a million things, but maybe just one or two things maybe putting your clothes away when you wake up, maybe putting your shoes back, maybe washing the dishes when you're done, maybe making your bed when you get up, so you can start to have the integrity to live according to what you say to yourself, and then that will change who you are and how you show up in all aspects of your life.

Desiree Brown: 58:10

Yeah, and having those in place, having all of that will help to um is strengthen, bolster, bolster discipline in your life. Um, because it's not we. We have the tools to start. We have our to-do list and keep our running tab of what's going on, which is a great starting tool, but to truly finish will take some level of effort and consistency in the in the interim to get to the intended in that Hopefully we decided on. Okay, finish will look like this and at the beginning we hopefully have to determine what finish looks like in the beginning and to get there, having those people to keep you accountable will and and maybe even it's just you If it's just you, I mean, I do think community is valuable. So find somebody, yeah.

Vernon Brown: 59:05

Because I mean, finish to me is, hey, we have a background for the podcast, but finish to you is the top of the wall, probably needs to be done too. So having somebody that can hold you accountable in love.

Desiree Brown: 59:16

In love. And figure out a way to communicate that hold you accountable in love, in love, and figure out a way to communicate that. So you're not criticizing, yeah, but you're helping. Oh, the communication part. All right, so we're finished I think we're finished.

Desiree Brown: 59:27

Okay, finish strong finish strong will be the next one, but thank you for joining us for conversations at the well as we work through our life. Thank you for being an audience to our therapy, but we ask that you continue to watch, like, subscribe, share and let us know if you have anything to share about how you finish or help.

Vernon Brown: 59:54

Tools that you can help.

Desiree Brown: 59:55

Tools, please.

Vernon Brown: 59:56

Help.

Desiree Brown: 59:57

Because clearly we need help. All right, we will talk to you in the next episode of Conversations at the Well.

Vernon Brown: 1:00:05

See you there.