Vernon Brown: 0:00

Hey there and welcome back to Conversations at the Well. In this episode we and actually this episode and the next few episodes we're going to be talking about our trip to Tulsa, oklahoma, and one of the stops we made, to Transformation Church, mike Todd's church. I don't know what you think about them, I don't know what your opinion is, but I think over the next few episodes you're going to get a few nuggets that should be helpful for you and for your life. So join us, grab a chair, grab some coffee and join us at the well for this great episode. Hey there and welcome back to conversations at the well. We have just gotten back from Tulsa, oklahoma. A little work trip, slash vacation, slash getaway, slash, slash, slash, all this stuff. I'm noticing your vacations are a lot of work. You think so?

Vernon Brown: 0:43

Well, your last vacation it was a family trip slash slash all this stuff yeah tour the elders, I think you named it. Yeah, a lot of stuff has been going on in your trip. I just need a trip where we just don't do anything I'm fine with that.

Desiree Brown: 0:56

Let's plan it. We got an anniversary coming up, so oh she just slipped that in yeah, I've been looking, I have been looking at spending money, yeah, so anyway, but yeah, it was a, it was, it was a great trip.

Vernon Brown: 1:13

Yeah so. So my job was sending me to Tulsa for a few work meetings, but those were in the middle of the week. I think it was Tuesday, or was it Wednesday, wednesday, tuesday so we usually I would usually fly in the day before and then fly out the day after, cause there's not a lot of planes in and out of Canton, mississippi, but um, so for this one it was like wait, we're in Tulsa, transformation churches there. Why don't we extend the trip either before or after, so we can get to church and have a great time? But then, as we kind of looked at the calendar, of course they have Sunday service, but then they also have Wednesday night service, so we just made a whole trip out of it. We came in Sunday.

Vernon Brown: 1:48

Saturday we drove up Saturday. We actually drove. We stopped a few places on the way, went to church on Sunday, hung out Monday Well, worked really Monday and then Tuesday did my work meetings.

Desiree Brown: 2:00

You keep forgetting your birthday. It was like a whole day.

Vernon Brown: 2:08

Oh yeah, my birthday was in there, and then Wednesday we stayed and then we went to their bible study as well, as they had this thing called dig, which is a prayer night, and yeah it was just a great experience.

Desiree Brown: 2:13

Yeah, it's kind of weird. Like I thought it was funny because we're we've never done. I don't think we've done this before, but like we've become those people that like travel to go to church. Like what is this? I don't even recognize holy rollers I don't recognize. Like you. I think it's more like me, but like who are you where? I don't know our church. Our trip was literally like flanked by we got to be there around yeah we got to be there sunday yeah for service and we got it.

Desiree Brown: 2:44

We want to stay till till Wednesday so we could go to the Bible study. Like it's just unbelievable. You turn into one of them kind of people. Unbelievable Especially like y'all don't even know who I met in the beginning, like 10, 12 years ago, long time ago, like 12 years ago. This is definitely a different person.

Vernon Brown: 3:09

But I love it and it's amazing and the trip was incredible. So we're going to talk about a few things over the next few episodes. Like it was a, it was a short trip from the perspective of Sunday to Thursday, and then I mean Saturday we were driving, thursday we were driving, or whatever.

Vernon Brown: 3:18

It was a short trip but, I feel like we got so much out of it and like even setting aside the work part, I think that went really well too, and even the birthday will set aside, but just like the church experience of Transformation Church was amazing. And so we're going to break this into two or three or six. Right now the plan is two or three, but maybe I don't know where the conversation is going to go.

Vernon Brown: 3:41

We're going to break it into a few different episodes which I think are super, super impactful. So this one is going to be called Fingerprints or something around there and we're going to talk a little bit about what that is. And then the next one is going to be on the topic of restoration and what that experience was like and how God's timing kind of brought us here in this moment in which we really needed it. It's going to be super cool. It's going to be super exciting because I think the trip was amazing. Anything you want to add to that before we hop in? No, let's go ahead and do it.

Vernon Brown: 4:12

So I was sitting back and trying to figure out how I can put into words this whole transformation experience and, like I said, setting aside, I know Mike Todd is a polarizing for some people pastor leader. I don't get it, but I guess I understand where some people are coming from, cause you could say he's a little eclectic, a little over the top, whatever your opinion of it is, and we're not really going to talk much about him cause he wasn't there. But what I do want to talk about is the concept of fingerprints we often talk about. I think there's like a holy scenario people talk about was like I saw my footprints in the Lord's footprints.

Vernon Brown: 4:43

So the footprints in the Lord's footprint and then at one point there was only one pair, because the Lord carried me and everybody falls out and says thank you, jesus.

Desiree Brown: 4:52

It's a poem. It's not in the Bible but it's a poem.

Vernon Brown: 4:55

Yeah, but it's, yeah, it's, it's a. I think it's called footprints in the sand or something like that, and I think it's cute, but I think one thing I want to take from it is so we went to Transformation Church. Obviously, when you're talking about any big church, it's usually focused around the main speaker.

Desiree Brown: 5:13

It's their name, whether it's.

Vernon Brown: 5:14

Sarah, or whether it's TD. If you went to another church you would hope for that lead speaker. But from the topic of footprint, I was telling Desiree like we went there and he wasn't there. Um, but I was telling her that he was, because you could see his fingerprints everywhere.

Desiree Brown: 5:40

And what?

Vernon Brown: 5:40

I mean by that is, although he wasn't physically in the place, it was his vision, it was his pursuit of doing things well, it was his personality, at least as it comes across online, like all of those things were very evident although he wasn't there.

Desiree Brown: 5:56

Yeah, and it was one of those. Ok, let's be real. Y'all know, if you, if there is a church that you have liked, you've enjoyed, you enjoy the teaching, you enjoy the pastor, when the pastor is not there and you know the pastor is not going to be there, come on, y'all, let's be real. Most of us will be like you know what I'm just, you know, sleep in this Sunday, like I'm just not going to go. And it was so interesting because we we weren't 100 percent sure but we were pretty sure that going there, that he, he wasn't going to be there. We do like his teaching, um, uh, you know everyone has their thoughts and opinions on it, but we do like his teaching.

Desiree Brown: 6:37

And, um, going up, I remember just like, reflecting and thinking and praying and being like you know, I really just, I still want to, really just, I still want to go. I still want to go and I want to see it more from like, like is it really like? How does it translate into in person and how much of the in-person experience translates online? Look at it from an operational standpoint. To be honest with you all, just because of our role in the church and we know, um, like, we've been very ingrained in the operations of our church and so wanted to really see what it was going to be like.

Desiree Brown: 7:13

And so we, we trudged on, but I was like, oh man, I really want him to be there. But but if he's not there, like please, god, make sure that it's like a great experience. Like want to, I want the teaching to, like I want to get what I, what I, um, I want to get what you want me to have and I want to be open to that, yeah, and regardless of the speaker. And so we, we trudged on and and and I think also it was helpful because we knew he wasn't going to be there. So I think think our, we already had our expectations.

Desiree Brown: 7:44

But I was like you know, but if, if you just decide to bring them back early, I wouldn't be, I wouldn't be upset about that.

Vernon Brown: 7:50

So I think, as a lesson for those of you who don't know how he has historically done things. Every year he goes I'm thinking I think it's a one or two month sabbatical I know it's at least one month and maybe two months, but like where he's just gone and he uses that time to spend time with God. He uses that time to reconnect with family. Um does all of this stuff and usually large churches would shy away from those things because it would just fall apart and disarray by the time you get back. But you know he's of the mindset and the belief, at least in what he said, in that this ain't my church, this is God's church, this is God's bride and I need to go spend some time making sure I keep mine and allow God to take care of his, and I think that's a great testament.

Vernon Brown: 8:34

I mean, as some of you are entrepreneurs, business owners, things how can you set your life up in a way in which things continue to go without?

Desiree Brown: 8:42

you.

Vernon Brown: 8:42

Because, quite frankly, which things continue to go without you? Because, quite frankly, jesus left and left the Holy Spirit to take care of things while he was away, at least physically away. And when we look at God resting one day out of the week, after creating the whole world, there is a discipline and a example of rest and being away from work and it's still functioning and still working within the scripture. So how can we apply that in our life and how can we make it so important that and so have so much trust in God that it's going to be there when we get back? And part of that is our responsibility to make sure we set things up right and make sure that you know, we put leaders over the tens, the fifties and a hundred, as as we saw Moses do.

Vernon Brown: 9:24

Yeah, moses do yeah. And um, but then part of that is also faith in God. Like God, you're making all of this happen. We're gifted, we're talented, we can do these things, but at the end of the day, none of this happens without you, right?

Desiree Brown: 9:37

So how do?

Vernon Brown: 9:38

I take my hands. Take my hands off and allow you to take the wheel. Yeah, and I think that builds your faith to see, wow, it didn't explode, it didn't die, like I'm important but I really ain't that important, kind of.

Desiree Brown: 9:49

Yeah, I think Exactly. I think it's definitely a faith thing, I think there's a humility, there's humility happening, there's trust in God and there's just. I think that helps you to. And there's just, I think that helps you to. It's it's ingraining the discipline of cutting off self-sufficiency, like, and it's a, it's a, it's a. It's a strange balance, right, because God created us and he gave us gifts and he wants us to use those things. But sometimes I think we put more faith in the gift than we do on the giver, right. And so what? That practice of just like, ok, I'm gone for two months. Y'all know this, it's it's. It's kind of written, this is just what we do. But but how do we get into a place where we're cultivating the gifts of others as well, where we're identifying who needs to be in these different places in order to keep things going?

Desiree Brown: 10:50

Um, like, there's a lot of um, man, I imagine there's a lot of prayer involved in just like understanding and having wisdom and discernment about how to set that up so that you can walk away for a few months at a time, like it's always. I'm I'm planning to come back like that's not a, that's not a thing. So, don't worry, it's not that, it's just I do need to. If I'm, if I'm here for uh, how many months? If I'm here for 10 out of the 12 months, like of course you know, I'm know I'm here and I'm, I have my say on everything, but like for two months, just two months, I'm a, I'm a back out for just a little bit, just so I can rest and get restored and get rejuvenated and come back even more um prepared for moving the ministry forward.

Vernon Brown: 11:38

And then, out of those moments of restoration came crazy faith, which was a huge thing that happened.

Vernon Brown: 11:44

And then a relationship goals. Oftentimes, this huge sermon series that really prepared the church forward, to provide new vision for the next season of the church, he says come out of those things. So I think it's just a really good discipline and I know we've talked about doing our we didn't call it a sabbatical Sabbath doing our Sabbath and hopefully you've kind of tried and have taken at least some piece of that conversation along with you. But I think it's certainly something that can can be a value add to people's lives, because even if you know you're going to take some time off, you know there's some preparation, you know there's people that you need to have in place, but then it also it also requires for you to recognize what's most important.

Vernon Brown: 12:23

I may want this person to be second in command because of their giftedness, but do they have the spirit, do they have the personality, do they understand the culture? Because working with the wrong heart really isn't going to do anything. So, recognizing the right people and what's coming out of them and really submitting yourself to the leadership of God, to say God, okay, I know you put me here, but who should I elevate or who should I leave this or entrust this to? Because the same God that put it in your hands is the same God who will make sure that his people and his souls are taken care of when you're not and when you're trying to get closer to him.

Desiree Brown: 12:59

Yeah, I think it kind of goes back to our one of our previous conversations about like when do you know it's God versus when it's you, and sometimes those things, oftentimes those things are in conflict with one another. But, like, can you imagine praying that prayer Like God, show me who you need to be in, who who should be in charge, and all of that? And then God is like that person over there. You're like wait a minute now, hold up. Now you know, yeah, I thought it was over here and and then God's like no, over there. And so now you have a choice do you do what God said to or do you go with what you want?

Desiree Brown: 13:38

yeah and so I mean all of it is an exercise in submission, submission which honestly and humility.

Vernon Brown: 13:48

I don't know what's best, because I don't know what's coming.

Desiree Brown: 13:49

Yeah.

Vernon Brown: 13:50

Even if God picks that random person over there that I don't like or have a good relationship with, obviously he knows something that we don't.

Desiree Brown: 13:56

Yeah.

Vernon Brown: 13:57

And so are you so proud that you know better than God? That's the question, yeah.

Desiree Brown: 14:04

So I guess, just kind of thinking about this fingerprint, yes, I guess what can you elaborate on what your experience was like and what I guess? Well, first of all, did you miss him not being there. Did you miss Pastor Todd not being there?

Vernon Brown: 14:24

So I think when we were going up there I certainly had a desire to hear him speak and wish that he was there, but coming out of the first, I guess, the Sunday worship experience, I didn't miss him one bit and I think and I was telling you about it the reason why is because, like when you first of all it's it doesn't look like a church. It's you pull up and it's like, huh, that's interesting. I mean, it looks like the pictures, but there's of everything that's posted it's not really much of the building, so you don't really know what you're going into. But I did like kind of go on Google maps to see what it was going to look like, but it looks different than you would expect. So you go into the parking garage, you come out there, of course the people showing you where to park and everything, and it's like you open this. We didn't even go through the front door, we went through the side door, which was closest to the parking garage, and it's almost like to me the environment changes from hot, sweltering like outside to it was actually kind of cold in there, but it's just like you're walking into a different space. It just felt different.

Vernon Brown: 15:25

And so you go in and volunteers are smiling and not just interacting with people but interacting with each other. They're all wearing like orange shirts so you know who you can ask questions to. There's TC, like boards everywhere, like welcome home up top and welcome to Transformation Church, and their mission statement is everywhere representing God to the lost and found for transformation in Christ, and so you're kind of just walking around like this is a lot. Yeah, they got like giving stations around. They had a backpack drive going on where you can drop a backpack. I think. Yeah, for kids there was a.

Desiree Brown: 15:59

Which is foundational for their ministry.

Vernon Brown: 16:01

Giving is like huge yeah yeah, so, um, the arena was over here behind closed doors, but then over here they had like little kid stations where they were playing xbox or whatever just hanging out chilling and then you walk to the center area. So you're walking. We walk in the side door, the arena's over here behind closed doors, like a whole bunch of offices and like play spaces over here for children, and you go into like the center area and it's just couches and chairs and people just talking the lobby.

Desiree Brown: 16:29

Yeah, basically, like, if you're coming through the front door, that's where we dropped you, yeah yeah, so but but I I really love the fact that there was community there.

Vernon Brown: 16:38

Yeah, people talking, people meeting one people from all different races, ages, kids running around, adults, not old people, but elderly people there too, just everybody interacting and enjoying one another, yeah, and we kind of walk up and I guess we looked lost. So then the welcome team.

Desiree Brown: 16:59

Are y'all new here? Hey, are you new here?

Vernon Brown: 17:01

Like yeah, and we said the center. They're like hey, are you new here? Like yeah, and we said yeah. They're like great, come on over here. And they take us to a table and we like sign in and everything, and they're just giving us some background information. Hospitality was top notch Hospitality was great.

Desiree Brown: 17:24

They gave us a little bag branded stuff coffee station, water station, yeah, like, um, just like I don't know. It was like.

Vernon Brown: 17:27

It was like oh, you're new, but you're not gonna feel new for long because we got you yeah, remembered your name and then they were telling us where we would go for, I guess, special seating if you will and kind of pointed us over there in that direction and then so all the new people who was their first time were kind of standing together. But you know, usually if you're new you're kind of like or you're scattered throughout the church. Well, they kind of have you in this holding area in which we had a chance to kind of spark a conversation hey, where are you visiting from, what do you do? And I know some people made some connections and contacts there and then they bring you into the sanctuary before everybody else comes in and take you to your seats, which ours were like, up front and to the right and it's just like the very front row.

Desiree Brown: 18:06

Yeah, you're walking into this place and you're like yeah, this is different yeah, yeah, and you. So one thing you mentioned, and I even felt it even before. Then you mentioned that once you walked in the door, you felt it was different. I felt it as we were rolling into the parking lot. Yeah, because the volunteers were like hey, what's up, welcome, come on in. They're like ushering you to your spot and I mean, okay, wait, wait, wait, are you?

Vernon Brown: 18:31

talking about when you were coming into the parking lot, or when you were coming into the building, or when you were going into the arena.

Desiree Brown: 18:35

No, in the parking lot, in the parking lot, gotcha, in the parking lot, those volunteers are top notch and I remember, so you know, when we were at Mountain West in Atlanta shout out to Mountain West. We love that. That was our church home before we moved here. And I mean, there is a volunteer who is just like he's awesome. He's awesome Like you, his, I don't know, it's infectious. His spirit, his, his, I don't know it's infectious. His spirit, may, yeah, spirit is infectious. He's just like so friendly and he's like, hey, so good to see you. Matter of fact, you may, he may, have never, ever seen you, but he makes you feel like you're known and you're seen.

Vernon Brown: 19:12

And he's his job is to direct you into the parking lot and he does it with such excellence that you just are like huh, I want to be here, that you just are like, huh, I want to be here and he's in the parking lot, so you may or may never speak to him. We had a chance to talk to him through a few classes, but just the way he takes his hat off for everybody and directs them in, it's just like, wow, you actually want to do this. And I think the at least from my experience, serving in the church can often probably start out joyful but ends up turning into a job or a task where the joy is gone. I think we've all been to those churches where it's like the ushers like oh, do you even want me here?

Vernon Brown: 19:50

Like it's a thing online, or like people talk about the mean ushers and it's like, yeah, and that's a culture that I'm sure applies in more cases, but here everybody was excited to be there and excited to see you and truly enjoyed at least portrayed that they enjoyed their work, which I thought was very, very impactful, and especially when you're coming into such a huge environment where there's a bunch of people, seeing a friendly face or someone who can help guide you in the right direction was certainly helpful.

Desiree Brown: 20:16

Yeah, like a true spirit of service, like not duty mean, because it is duty, you're on duty, you're supposed to be there on time and all that kind of stuff. So there's a duty portion of it, but it was more from a heart of service, I think, and I think that may have been why I felt different. Um, and yeah, this is like we're driving up and I'm like, oh, this is, oh, this is. I can already sense this is good. And they were. They were happy, excited, they smiled a lot. There were people I think that was probably this should not happen, okay, this should not be a thing, but they were happy people yeah, joyful people, and I would say joyful more than happy yeah, like you can just.

Vernon Brown: 21:00

I think I'm sure everyone wasn't where they wanted to be in life, but whether they found the church to be a place of solace where I can just get away from life and be here, or whether they found the church as a place where they can leave their burdens, or whether they found the church a place where they can meet all their friends, whatever it was, they were happy to be in that environment and didn't feel like oh, it's Sunday again, let me come in here.

Vernon Brown: 21:22

It was almost as if I got to get there or I want to be there or what I need in life is there and it certainly kind of bled through their skin and, like when we did get seated, you can just kind of look around and see people catching up and I mean that's not abnormal, but it just seemed more authentic. Not somebody comes up oh hey, how you doing, why she wear them.

Vernon Brown: 21:42

It wasn't like that it just seemed more authentic and maybe we had rosy colored glasses because we wanted it to be that way. But in a place that big, I'm sure you would be able to see some fakeness if it was there.

Desiree Brown: 21:52

Oh for sure. And I was kind of like like just observing, like is it real, you know? Like because I'm I'm like how, how, how are they doing this? Um, but I just one image in my mind that sticks out. It was like kind of maybe a younger, like maybe late 20s, early 30 ish woman, black woman, um, like you know, probably I don't even know what her hair looks like, but in my mind it's kind of like locks, like very well.

Desiree Brown: 22:21

Well, I'm saying trying to say it's very ethnic ethnically black blackity, black black, you know, but like you know, in a good, you know, in in the best ways, and an older, maybe late fifties, early sixties white man, gray hair, hair like quintessential white guy, and they embraced and hey, how you doing, and like. It was not just like a hey how you doing, passing by kind of thing, but it's like I know you, you know me, we're like connected, um and in. I was just like that is top notch. I love that because, if we really think about what this whole thing was supposed was designed to be, from with one another, that is, that was just a visible example of what it was intended to be like.

Desiree Brown: 23:28

And unfortunately, in our society, in our culture, in just our humanness, we have created all of these different segments, segments, factions, fractions and divisions, and I just thought that somehow this place, this church, has done an incredible job of like breaking down some of those barriers that cause us to live so separately in a city. This is Tulsa, oklahoma, okay, this is, if you don't know the history. There was some really awful things that happened in Tulsa regarding race, the black wall street, the massacre, essentially, and this is in that same city. But yet here you find an experience that is like so different.

Vernon Brown: 24:20

Yeah, yeah, and I think it goes back to the fingerprints, like of, I think every. Well, I want to ever. I think most churches that you attend tend to take on, or most organizations. Let's even make it broader Most organizations take on the culture or the view or the look or the countenance or the personality of their leader. If you're a person who instills fear and you like to be controlling, then that's usually the environment that you create. If you're a person that's giving and caring and, you know, wants to look out for people, then that's usually what you attract and I think that's a lot of what that? That's a lot of the fingerprints that I think we saw left behind and that you know.

Vernon Brown: 25:06

It talks about nobody, prays alone, talks about creating a, creating a culture around people, talks about servitude, all of those things.

Vernon Brown: 25:14

And just to see it in action, with all of these different people from different experiences and walks of life, it's amazing. And I think the cool thing about it is, once you've set the culture and once you've created the expectation, you can take the most rigid, non-loving person from any other church or organization and bring them in there, and either they're going to feel so uncomfortable by just people walking up and talking to them and loving them, even if they're not feeling good, that they're going to change, or want to say, hey, what, what do I need to do? Or what, what must I do to be like that, or they're going to leave. But it's about so cherishing what you have that you don't allow it to be muddied until it's strong enough to stand on its own. So now I can go leave for two months because the foundation and the culture of it is so strong and the leaders are fighting and sustaining that, even in my absence, that it can.

Desiree Brown: 26:15

it can live without me yeah, yeah, I do wonder how they address it, like when it does happen, like when people do try to like muddy the waters, if you will. Um, we wouldn't have seen that.

Desiree Brown: 26:27

I'm sure it happens behind closed doors but I think that was that was really really cool to see, and even how they define their, their groups, their tribes is what they call them, and it's like I found my tribe, and so I think some of them are based around just common interest, or maybe there's maybe people who came in around the same time. I don't know how they divided up, but I thought I was like man. Even the word of tribes is just kind of a cool thing too from a number of perspectives, because, although we did talk about black and white, oklahoma also has like a huge, uh, native american indian, alaska, native, um, an american indian population there.

Desiree Brown: 27:08

And to think about tribes like yeah, that's right on brand that's yeah, so, um, and to know that tribes, although they may have a common interest or common something, they still can interact and um and be with one another and there's like a spirit of collaboration and like and respect of ones of the of the differences but also the commonalities, like I just think it, oh, I, I, I know we're just like saying all these good things, but that was really our experience, like it was all these good things so much so that it was like we left, like how did they do this? How is this? Yeah, um, and also have some ideas for things that we want to bring back home here, but um, what was your worship experience like?

Desiree Brown: 27:55

oh, we want to get into that yeah, I don't think we're going to talk about fingerprints oh man, okay, so amazing, okay, um freeing, like I felt you ever been in a place where, where you again, culture it's the culture like in here. We worship like this, we sing softer songs, we pray silently, nobody's hallelujah in and people aren't running through the aisles like we do it kind of this way. Or maybe it's a situation where um people do with the complete opposite, where it's very what's the word um charismatic and it's like a whole lot going on and um if you don't, if you're not like this, yeah, not in the spirit, right, if you're not praising like this.

Desiree Brown: 28:55

Then you like how can you sit there and all that? And it's like people's experience in worship range the gamut. It can be quiet and still, but it can also be like full out, like running through the aisles I'm somewhere in the middle. So for me, I felt for the first time in a really, really long time that I was able to worship freely. The way the spirit was moving me to worship, talk about in spirit and in truth. Like what does it say? Worship me in spirit? No, yeah, worship in spirit and in truth. And I felt like I was having my spirit and in truth experience.

Desiree Brown: 29:38

But I was also really kind of self-conscious because I'm like, are people looking at me? Like what are they going to think if I do this or that? Because, again, we were new into the space and I didn't really know what was allowed and what was not. And you kind of, when in Rome, you do as the Romans, right? So, um, I was a bit self-conscious of that, but I felt like I was being prompted to kneel. I feel like the experience that I had was really about surrender and my posture had to match my heart and my spirit in that moment and so I wanted to kneel and I was. I was standing up, you know, hands up and all, and I'm standing and I wanted to kneel and at first I didn't see anyone doing it. And then, when I looked around again, I opened my eyes. I looked around again, I saw several people kneeling.

Desiree Brown: 30:33

I was like, okay, I guess it's okay, um, and so I, I, I did what the spirit was leading me to do, but there were so many hangups. There were so many like what are people going to think about me? What is this? Okay, never mind. The spirit is like you need to come on down, never mind. That was happening.

Desiree Brown: 30:54

But my flesh was like, worried about all the things. And what other people are going to say Like, or think nobody's going to say anything to you? But are the people going to say like, um, or think nobody's going to say anything to you? But what are people going to think?

Desiree Brown: 31:04

And then I had on a really cute outfit and I was like I don't know, god, you want me to get on this floor, like, is that what you're saying? And he's like I don't care, but get down. And so I was able to experience worship in just like a different way and I don't think I've done it that way publicly ever and I was, um, I got to experience God in a very intimate way and, um, there was also an experience while I, after I kneeled, and I'm like praying and I'm praying in the spirit and all this stuff is happening, and then someone comes behind me and like, like gets down with me and prays with me and begins to tell me all of these things that only God would know which is so crazy because I didn't think about it then.

Vernon Brown: 31:52

I thought about it while we were sitting at the table about. You know, often when they're doing the altar call or the call to salvation, he's like here at tc nobody prays alone.

Desiree Brown: 32:01

Fingerprint yeah like, which is crazy to think about yeah, and then to recount it shout out can I say her name? I?

Vernon Brown: 32:09

don't know.

Desiree Brown: 32:10

First, initial t there you go okay, shout out to t um she. She was also having an experience. She was in worship and she was praying about her things. But she said I felt you, and I felt you even stronger than I felt myself, and I knew God was saying go pray with her. And and she did. And I'm so grateful for it because I mean it just it clarified so much about what was going on in that moment, which was a lot a bit confusing.

Vernon Brown: 32:41

It just it clarified so much about what was going on in that moment, which was a bit confusing, which which I think, I think a lot of what you're saying is. I think some people are like, oh, that's just regular church. But but I think for many, maybe even most, being in an environment where you feel comfortable to worship, however you worship, being in an environment where others feel comfortable to worship and take part in your experience at the prompting of God, without wondering or worrying about what people would say or if this is right or how they would respond, I think speaks to the safety of the environment.

Vernon Brown: 33:22

I think so Because I think so often in church, if someone who needs God a lot because of their experiences has a moment with God, the first thing everyone else thinks is well, I know how you live. Why are you doing all of this? Or why are you acting so extra? But I think fingerprint to create an environment of safety to where you can lay yourself bare, you can lay your burdens bare and I mean he does it from the pulpit just about every Sunday but setting that tone to where that's okay and that's comfortable and it may be unnatural to someone coming in from the outside as a visitor, but it's not unnatural to those who call that house home.

Desiree Brown: 34:02

Yeah Well, I mean, I know I've also experienced where you're in a room full of people, but you feel like you're by yourself and like in church and other places as well. But like that experience is not uncommon. I've felt that and feel that pretty often, but there was certainly an intimacy, kind of like a one-on-one happening between God and me. But for God to invite someone else in to be like no, I see you, and these are the things that I'm trying to reveal to you in this moment was just incredible. That I'm trying to reveal to you in this moment was just incredible. And then one of the other things I thought were notable was okay, the singers were like, they were so good.

Vernon Brown: 34:51

So you got singers and then you got like people when they open their mouth and you're like, oh, this is different.

Desiree Brown: 34:57

Yeah.

Vernon Brown: 34:57

Like they were different.

Desiree Brown: 34:59

Yeah, I don't know, they may have, may have had a career at it, who knows. But like these people, they could really really really, really really they were fantastic, um. But I don't know how you felt, but for me sometimes it gets real showy because when you know you can sing, you won't sing and you're going to do all your things and all of that and it kind of becomes more about like you and you're singing and how good you can sing and less about like who you're singing to and what and you just kind of directing people to God and the worship of God. But just to finish it out, because I know you want to say something real quick, I my experience, the way I was receiving it and perceiving it, was like no, everything all of it was pointing back to God.

Desiree Brown: 35:50

It wasn't a showboating or showcasing of one's skills, but more like a glorification and a worship of God in that moment. That's how I experienced it. But I'm curious what your experience was. And there's always like a glorification and a worship of God in that moment. That's how I experienced it, but I'm curious what your experience was.

Vernon Brown: 36:01

And there's always like a tension triangle and I don't know if it's triangle or not, but there's always a tension triangle in church because you have the order and operation of service, like this is a big church and there are things that need to happen and time based things and and and countdown timers and all of those. So at one end of the triangle you have operations and timing and you also have worship.

Vernon Brown: 36:23

In the experience, you also then have the, like you said, the, the the egos of the singers and I think all three of those things are constantly at tension and it seems like and this was just one service, but it seems like not just. It seems like the the God and the spirit side, one where even, even like the flow of service, had one of the pastors come up there to move it on, but it was just like this is a moment, and so I think every church experience, every church experiences two or three of those. But to to see it handled with such grace and I'm sure there are some Sundays where it's like no, I mean the speaker has to catch a plane Like we got to get this moving, but at least to be in that environment, in that time it seemed as if what was supposed to win won.

Desiree Brown: 37:14

Yeah, yeah, it was notable and I wonder if it's like that every sunday. But I mean, maybe we just caught a real good one. I'll take it. Yeah, it was great, um, but I think, because to me that's always an annoyance for me, like stop trying, to stop, stop making it about you, um, because like you, you kind of miss god or you you're just like it's. It can be distracting from the experience of god, which is which completely the whole sunday experience should be about god, and, um, I felt like I kept being directed back there, like even when my mind started wondering and I'm self-conscious about myself and my worship and what that looks like and what people think, all that stuff, it was like no, no, no, no, no. Remember why you're doing this.

Vernon Brown: 38:04

And I didn't. I didn't hear and it's not to say that it wasn't said but at least in my experience I didn't hear like the you ought to or you should, or you got to do this or do this or do that. It was more about remember or think about or you know how has God and I think sometimes in churches we take more of an approach of do this to get there versus think about or remember or experience or allow yourself to go into this place and you know I'm not really good at taking direction anyway, but it was certainly an experience.

Desiree Brown: 38:37

Yeah, but, and it may have been related. Well, I don't know. I think it all like worked together because the Galatians three is what the church has been studying and really the premise of Galatians three is that it's not about your works, it's about your faith. It's your faith in Christ that got you to this place and it's your faith in Christ that got you salvation and and and and invited you in to be heirs to God's promises and all of those different things. And so I think, somehow, even though the sermon was preached after the worship portion of the service, it it was still in alignment because you could have easily been relying on the works.

Desiree Brown: 39:24

You could have easily been relying on the yeah, I'm really good at this, so let me do it, but it somehow, some way maybe could be a one-off, but it was very much spirit-led in that moment, at least how I perceived it. And I know that other people were in the place, right, and so there's hundreds of people, and so I mean, nate, how many people do you think it was? I didn't, I really didn't look, I was so in my zone, I didn't even really look back, so I don't know how many people were there, but I'm comfortable with hundreds, maybe thousands maybe.

Desiree Brown: 40:06

But I also wonder what their experience was like in that same place, cause it's all colored by your, your context, right, cause some folks came in and they probably had a horrible day even up to that moment, or maybe they've been going through a horrible experience and I wonder, were they able to also experience God in the incredibly powerful way that I did and I think you did? But I want to hear about your experience, because you haven't talked about, well, what was your worship Like? Well, I guess I went in a whole lot more detail, but I tend to do that so well, there's no more that you want. Was there any more that you wanted to share about your, your worship experience?

Vernon Brown: 40:47

oh, not, well, I think I think we have to get to restoration in a future episode. But yeah, we'll talk about it okay, um, yeah, so I know, one thing that was weird was like offering, because cause it just came and went and you're like wait, what happened. That was kind of weird, um, and then then the sermon. So they were, they were in a series, so Mike Todd wasn't there. They were in a series with pastor Charles, who's an executive or assistant or some kind of pastor. But is that?

Desiree Brown: 41:17

he's experienced pastor. He's the experienced like he's over. I think he is the one that tried to make sure that all of the people are having an experience during service.

Vernon Brown: 41:28

I couldn't hear if you said the experienced pastor or an experienced pastor yes, he's over experienced, got you yeah, so um, but then they had dr tubman, dr tubman yes, tubman come in who's like some big built, like big dude guy yeah he had an amazing, amazing ceremony. We'll see if we can put the link to it in the in the show notes or whatever, but that was like freaking awesome and timely just the entire experience.

Vernon Brown: 41:53

I feel like you you never want to get your hopes up too much when you visit a church that you think you would enjoy. But much like this because you know we talked about in a previous episode, where you know this looks like it should look, but if you zoomed out or pan the camera around, it looks a whole lot different. But I think that was one experience in which it seemed every bit of what we would have hoped or what we would have dreamed that it would have been, and I think it was everything that we needed in that particular moment it honestly exceeded my expectations.

Desiree Brown: 42:24

Yeah, because I was like surely it's gonna be. You know, it can't be, can't be like that, you know? Um, my skepticism was like, we'll see how it really you you know, boy.

Desiree Brown: 42:37

I was like, oh wait, I was wrong. Like this is, this is really put together. This is very well organized, very well ran. Everyone seems to know what they're supposed to do. Um, the, the joy is there, the connections are there, the community is there, the fellowship, like in God, is there, like it just there I'm'm. I have been trying to think like where did they miss? Yeah, and from my perspective, I didn't see where they missed should have some cheaper merch interestingly enough, I thought the pricing was not too bad.

Desiree Brown: 43:15

It was more than what I wanted to pay at that particular moment. Stuff for ten dollars yeah, they didn't have two ten dollar things, but I thought that the quality of what they had was really good stuff at all and some stuff I would have imagined it would have sold for way more yeah so honestly, I didn't think that was to me, that wasn't a thing, because it was like this really beautiful sweatshirt, like, like thick and like you could tell it had some love put into that thing and it was like 50 and I'm like, oh okay, that's not.

Desiree Brown: 43:45

That's not as I was expecting to be closer to 100 yeah um, so, and then also coming from other places, so I don't know, maybe that isn't expensive in tulsa, I don't know, but I didn't think that was an issue there. There are areas we didn't get to see. We didn't have our kids with us, so we didn't see the children's ministry.

Vernon Brown: 44:04

It looked fun Like yeah, can I go, but the entire floor was for the kids.

Desiree Brown: 44:08

Yeah, I couldn't. I was looking for a miss and I could not find a miss.

Vernon Brown: 44:18

So I'm trying to figure out how to put it Huh.

Desiree Brown: 44:21

Is that bad to like? Look for yeah, probably, but so.

Vernon Brown: 44:26

So if there's one thing that I left the experience with is I think I think we all should think of ourself as gifted and talented and able to do anything we put our mind to. That's what our parents told us growing up and hopefully that's what we believe, especially in 2024, we have access to so much information and training or whatever, and so, with that and me thinking of myself that way as a gifted person that can like learn and figure out and assimilate things, learn and figure out and assimilate things it was probably the only time in life where I looked at something and once again I I think the world of myself, so I just preface it with that. It was the only time I've been somewhere or seen something where I thought I couldn't do that by myself. Like in a lot of areas, I'm like I can figure that out, or it's not that difficult, or I can I can get the right people.

Vernon Brown: 45:21

To me, that seemed like someone who went beyond the ability of themselves and had to call upon God to make it work. Because you have people, you have personality, you have all of these things that need to happen. You have the procurement of this huge facility personality. You have all of these things that need to happen.

Vernon Brown: 45:40

You have the procurement of this huge facility. All of those things are so far beyond what you can do in and of yourself, and I think it's it's amazing to see someone functioning in that level of faith Um, at least from where we sit, cause you know there's there's always truth and it may be different, but to see the fruit of such a thing and to be like, yeah, you couldn't have done this by yourself, like it was just amazing and it it really puts one.

Vernon Brown: 46:05

It confirms that for me, specifically what I think and what I believe to be possible as the church experience is being done somewhere and it may be be done everywhere. I just hadn't happened to be in those places. But for me, and from my perspective, it was very important to see no, it's possible, no, it can be done. But then to to see something where it's like, yeah, you good, but you can't do all this.

Vernon Brown: 46:31

And to see God moving in that arena, like I think. Often we read the Bible and think about the Red Sea and all of this stuff and it's like, well, god doesn't do amazing work like that. And to see that to me is equivalent to seeing that, if that makes sense, to get all of these people from different backgrounds inside the same room to curate a worship experience where everybody feels like they're heard and they're understood, to bring in violent, to bring in new people into this huge place and make them feel like at home, to have all these different ways and make people feel connected. That's not any man or men or women's ideal or perspective or purpose, but to me that's God bringing heaven just a little bit closer for us to exist within it.

Desiree Brown: 47:17

Yeah, yeah, I would love to like talk to him and just kind of like just have a, just be able to peer into his mind, like how, how would he describe the process for getting there? That would be amazing. I would love to just just talk to him and just sit at his feet and learn. But Pastor Todd, michael Todd and Pastor Natalie, I mean they just it's amazing. It's amazing what you have done. If you ever I don't know if this will ever get into your lap but it's amazing what y'all have done. I admire you so much. I thank God for you, I thank God for your ministry, because we were really really touched by our experience and to call it transformation church, like I did feel like I kind of left transport and that was crazy for that mission to, for me to experience a part of that mission personally, absolutely incredible. Like it's just I, I can't there's, I can't even say enough, so got it yeah.

Vernon Brown: 48:25

Well, that's it. We didn't talk about what we were supposed to talk about. That's okay. I think we talked about what we were supposed to talk about. Um, thank you for joining in with us and hopefully you you peeled something out of this conversation. We talked a lot about transformation, church, but I but I think, for those of you who, I guess, appreciate what's being done there, for those of you who don't appreciate what's being done there, I hope that gave you a perspective from people who've been there and people who've kind of been in the place, as to what it feels like, what it looks like, but then also inspires you to look at your own visions and look at what you're trying to do and say is that something that I can do by myself or is that something that I need God for? And if it's something you can do in your own power, maybe you need to think and pray and hope and believe for something a little bit bigger.

Desiree Brown: 49:07

Yeah, yeah, and I would love to hear of other experiences that you've been through that inspired you and gave you a glimpse as to what God can do, like when you partner with him what God can do. We'd love to visit some other places that just recommend some places.

Vernon Brown: 49:26

Yeah, Go and visit Because, like I said, it was new and different to us. But maybe that's your every Sunday experience. We would love to see and experience that as well for you too.

Desiree Brown: 49:36

Yeah, but yeah, thank you all for joining us for Conversations at the Well and we will see you next time.