Vernon Brown: 0:00

Hey there and welcome to Conversations. I shocked you on that one didn't I.

Desiree Brown: 0:04

I was not ready.

Vernon Brown: 0:06

You got to be ready, so you get ready and you stay ready.

Desiree Brown: 0:09

Oh man okay.

Vernon Brown: 0:10

So in this episode we're going to be talking about take two of fingerprints. We tried to talk about this last week, but I felt like the conversation just went in a different direction, which is fine and I love that. But what we want to talk about is when you place your finger somewhere in life with your presence, whether it's you showing up at work, whether you're showing up at home in the lives of your children, or whatever it is that you show up as what fingerprint do you leave behind? And let's talk about how that applies to our recent trip experience. Yeah, so I encourage you, grab a chair, grab your, grab your comfort, what's it called your comfort blanket, snuggie, your snuggie. Grab your snuggie, because we might step on some toes here, but I feel like it's going to be a great conversation. We'll see you at the well, and welcome to this conversation at the well.

Vernon Brown: 0:56

We've been covering over the past week, really, our experience traveling up to Tulsa, oklahoma, and we spent a good amount of time last episode talking about our experience, what it felt like and kind of how it impacted our life, and we kind of glazed over it a little bit, but talking about the fact that the lead pastor, the senior pastor wasn't there, and he hasn't been there for a month and probably won't be there for another month, but you could still feel and experience and walk within the vision of what he's created, even in his absence. And so what I wanted to talk about today is how that applies to our life, and we had a somewhat difficult conversation a conversation just the same asking the question of if we take that same idea that what we experienced at Transformation Church was a outcome of his vision, an outcome of the things that he felt necessary to possibly argue about and fight for, as well as the things that his personality allowed to just go without checking. All of those things are what he feels led to change and what he feels led to allow. All of those are markings of who he is as a person at this level of maturity. And so the question I had asked you was as you look at your life, what does your fingerprint look like?

Vernon Brown: 2:19

And I thought it was interesting, because we started off that conversation and you were kind of like, well, I don't know that that really exists. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Desiree Brown: 2:27

Yeah, so, and I think it was just coming off of that worship experience just a Sunday service and just seeing how strong the fingerprint was on everything, um, at least the way that we have been through our, our local internet weekly check-in, yeah, like I was like, okay, that tracks like everything. It wasn't. It wasn't like, oh, that was really different than what I was expecting.

Desiree Brown: 2:57

It was like it was what I was expecting, but done better than what I expected yeah so there was that, and so, coming off of that, you were asking me like kind of where do I see my fingerprint, or what was my fingerprint look like? And I was like, well, shoot, I. I don't know like if I have come off that strongly in different things where when I'm not there it's still like, oh, but that's her, you know.

Vernon Brown: 3:24

And I think when I, when I turned the conversation around to myself, I kind of started in a very similar place, Like there's no place where I leave and I see myself. But I think for me it was because I was looking for myself to show up in a specific way. So, for example, when I, when I leave, I want my fingerprint to be continued excellence and things running well and processes working and all of these things, and so when I look out around my life, I see bits and pieces of those things. But what my fingerprint or what your fingerprint is, isn't just the good parts, but also the difficult conversations too, so you know, when we talk about the well processes are on point, probably we're over-processed.

Vernon Brown: 4:09

I mean, we got automated text messages and emails and check-ins and all of those things happening. The process is very tight. But also when you look, and if you look a little bit closer, what you'll see is a lot of things done but a lot of things left unfinished. And so I think the conversation about fingerprints is no matter what you're doing, no matter what you're a part of, no matter how much time you invest or spend, it leaves a fingerprint. But I think what we have to be mature enough and able enough to do is to look at that and say it's not what I want it to look like, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still me.

Vernon Brown: 4:49

And so even when we talk we've been referencing a lot about this what's on camera looks really good, but all around it is unfinished.

Vernon Brown: 4:58

That's a fingerprint and it's not the fingerprint I want, but nevertheless it's the fingerprint that is, and I think that makes sense when we're talking about a building. But what happens when you look at your relationship and I look at my wife who's harder than I want, because that's the fingerprint that I've left on her personality or when we look at our relationships with our children and how they act and how they respond in that behavior they replicate that we model and we find that that's a fingerprint of the household they've grown in. Or when we look at our household and how we keep our household, or how we trim the trees or trim to cut the grass or whatever, that's a fingerprint of the time that we've dedicated to such an activity in our life. And I think when we start to look at our life and look at the fingerprints, we leave not as what we want to see, but what's actually there. It's a really difficult conversation, yeah.

Desiree Brown: 5:54

Yeah, I did not like the conversation. To be completely honest, I think it. Yeah, I saw, saw myself more the stuff that I try not to see. I saw it and I was like I don't know if I like these fingerprints that I've been leaving and so it has brought into question as like what, what is your fingerprint? And if you don't like what you see, what are you going to do to make it different to, to change it and to grow? Because it was just like glaringly obvious that there is some growth that needs to happen.

Desiree Brown: 6:34

And so, um, yeah, it's a tough conversation and even when you were like let's talk about fingerprints, I was like we want to do this for other people because, again, it's a vulnerable place, a vulnerable state, and if you only focus in on the places where you aren't where you want to be, it can do one of two things it can motivate you to do better or it can make you like you kind of get stuck in that, and so I'm working towards not getting stuck, because I think that that's probably the posture that I've been in previously.

Desiree Brown: 7:15

Um, or position I've been in previously. I don't want to get stuck in that place. I want to like okay, you don't like it. Well, it's up to you to change it. So, like, um, you know, putting some milestones and goals and markers in place so that I can see my progress and see my growth, or at least acknowledge it, because it's always happening, even me now, at this point in life, is a whole lot different than I was even five years ago. And if you go back five years from there, you, you, it will there will be differences, there will be changes, but, um, oftentimes in the day to day, uh, doings and beings, we can't see it.

Vernon Brown: 8:02

Yeah.

Desiree Brown: 8:03

And so you have to do your best to make the the days count for something, even if it's just like a little like a centimeter movement or just like a tiny bit of progress. It's better than just stagnation. Is that a a word? Just being stagnant? Um, so that's kind of where I am right now. Uh, I could probably feel it Like I don't know, I feel real heavy, just like thinking about it. I don't like it, um, but it's like okay, but okay, that's fine, you don't like it. But now that you have acknowledged it, and now that you have recognized it, what are you going to do?

Vernon Brown: 8:49

about it, yeah, yeah, and I think, um, I, I think for me it's, I think it's step one to recognize what your current fingerprints look like.

Vernon Brown: 9:04

Because if I, if I walk in and say my fingerprint is perfection and excellence, and you start to point out things that are not perfection and excellence, I get in my feelings about that, because it's supposed to be perfect and you should respect and appreciate the work that's done.

Vernon Brown: 9:21

But that's because I've allowed myself to believe a skewed view of the world.

Vernon Brown: 9:25

But if my view of myself and my fingerprint is that I'm really good at getting started, I'm really good at finishing 95%, but that last 5% will never get done, when you come out and point, when you come and point those things out, I still may not like it, but because I have a more truthful view of myself, I can appreciate and understand it, or I can at least recognize that you're not being mean, you're not being upset, but you're quite frankly pointing out the truth.

Vernon Brown: 9:53

But I can't appreciate the truth until I recognize the truth in me. Because outside of that, if I don't recognize that what you're saying is the truth, and I think you're lying, I think you're being hurtful, I think you're being angry and mean when you're saying is the truth, and I think you're lying, I think you're being hurtful, I think you're being angry and mean when you're just it ain't finished and it should be finished, but it's not finished. And so I think a lot of our or people's interpersonal issues come from the fact that they don't have a true view of what their fingerprints look like, and because of that, when someone does show them or tell them exactly what it looks like, there's conflict.

Desiree Brown: 10:27

Yeah, and I think it hurt yeah.

Vernon Brown: 10:28

Yeah, and and I and I think also it's it's easy and convenient for us to look at a situation and ignore that.

Vernon Brown: 10:37

Our fingerprints are in that formula as well, like in that difficult marriage or in that bad relationship with our bosses yeah, they did a lot of stuff, but you got a fingerprint on there too, and we shouldn't take responsibility for every failure of everyone else. But I do think there is responsibility in recognizing that we either didn't do our part we did our part and the other person didn't or we didn't do what was required to make that experience positive, and I think that we didn't do what was required. Concept in some instances it's not always applicable may mean it's not 50-50, may mean that in this conversation it's 90-10. But you did your 50 and thought you got a gold star for it, but your fingerprint is that, in your partner's lack, you didn't step up to the plate. And so I think the conversation about fingerprints really aims to put a focus on who we show up as in the world and the difference sometimes between what we think is expected of us and what the circumstance or situation truly requires of us.

Desiree Brown: 11:55

Yeah, well, yes, all of all of those things are true. Um, I think it would be unbalanced to own also only acknowledge the things that aren't going well. I think there is also there should be an acknowledgement of the things that that are, because I don't think that my personal belief is that not that in in an individual, not everything is bad, um, and it doesn't mean that we ignore what is bad, because there's still work to be done. But I think it would be I think it's for me anyway unproductive to not acknowledge the the good too which is where you balance me, because I have no.

Vernon Brown: 12:46

I have no value or use for the good.

Desiree Brown: 12:49

I'm trying to fix the bad well, I think, if we okay, because I was thinking about, like, where does god come into this conversation? And, um, he created all the things and it was good, right, and so except for humans. He didn't say it was good man, it's not good for him to be alone. Oh yes, it is not good for man to be alone. So there's, there's beat for you.

Desiree Brown: 13:21

So I guess what I'm trying to kind of bring out is we have. It just doesn't make sense to only focus in on the wrongs, because the fact is we are human, are incredibly complex and beautiful in the sense of, yes, a whole lot of can be a whole lot of mess, but there could be also a whole lot of beauty in in that one person, um. And so I think that we have to maybe even acknowledge and figure out how can we be more of our best which may be able to counteract some of most, hopefully, of our worst, but also the acknowledgement that we can't do it fully on our own. Like God is because we aren't right. Like what makes God great and amazing and wonderful and majestic and all of the things that god is is because of our lack. And so you know the the verse um about uh, I I made I'm messing this up strong in your weakness. That's not it. I might have to have you flip through the perfect yeah, my strength is made perfect in your weakness.

Desiree Brown: 14:45

I feel like that's. It's like when we run out of ourself or our ability, like it doesn't mean that we just like, oh, I'm just stuck here. It's like, okay, god, listen, I'm acknowledging I am not this, I am not that, I am not this, but you are all of those things, and so I need you to work in and through me to to cover my flaws. Um, you know, even thinking about the love chapter, which is love, hopes, all things bears, all things beliefs, all things, loves never fails and it's like, if god is love, their, their love does not fail. So but we humans fall short, we failing all over the place, just just people in all over.

Desiree Brown: 15:30

So, so I guess what I'm trying to get at is in your reflection, in your assessment, you recognize the things that you are certainly not good at, but, um, you recognize the things that you are certainly not good at, but, um, how do you do you recognize? You just told me you don't really recognize the things that you're you are good at, but then you kind of said that you do, because you're like I am like I'm a bad man pajama, or wait, can you say that I'm a bad man? There we go. I'm a bad man with JAMA, or wait, can you say that I'm a bad man? There we go. I'm a bad man, like I'm really good at these things. So you do acknowledge the things you're good at, but A focus, you focus on what the things?

Vernon Brown: 16:15

that.

Desiree Brown: 16:16

I'm not. How does that? How do you? How do you move forward in that?

Vernon Brown: 16:30

Well, I think there's there's a few different areas or categories in which you can say you're not good. I think there are some things in which don't work out well or I'm not good at because I don't put forth effort. Um, once again, my twisted, perhaps, view of myself. I don't think there are many things that I'm not good at. I think there are a lot of things. I don't think there are many things that I'm not good at. I think there are a lot of things that I don't put forth effort towards.

Vernon Brown: 16:51

Like, I have the strange belief that I can do what I put my mind to, and so if there's an area in which I'm not strong at, I think it's because I either have chosen or I'm just not putting forth enough effort in which brings us to what we're going to talk about later, and just the the changing process God is putting me through, because I I honestly believe that they're like, if there's anything that needs to be done, I can do it. I just need to invest the time to learn, to figure out and to develop whatever strength. I need to do that. But God's taken me through the process of. It's not about you, and you know to to rely less upon what you believe you can do and more upon what God can do through you, and so that is not a perspective to adopt. I do think there is value in having a piece of that within yourself, but definitely not to the level that I have grown to trust myself, and God has made me very aware of the fact that that needs to change.

Desiree Brown: 17:57

Yeah, I want to stay on topic, but I also want to kind of like dig into what you just said. What do you mean? Well, I want to know what. What you have been experiencing Like what is, what process has begun, and how do you know, how do you know? God is like like, making you aware of things and, and what do you? How are you responding to that? What is he making you aware of? And and and and what do you? How are you responding to that? What is he making you aware of? And and how are you responding to so?

Vernon Brown: 18:35

first of all, respectfully, he's annoying, and so what I experience in my life is um, whether it's businesses, whether it's work, whether it's businesses, whether it's work, whether it's anything. Usually in the natural world, a plus B equals C. If I advertise, more people come.

Vernon Brown: 18:55

If I work harder more deals close If I I don't know, put forth more effort what I reap out of what I've sown. But there's a lot of I, I, I, I, I, I in that and god is making the I not work as efficiently as I'm accustomed to and through just prayer and just spending time listening. Like I said, god doesn't. He's not very verbose with me. Usually it's like very sharp um, not criticism, but um. It's like very sharp, um, not criticism, but um. What's the, what's the holy word for criticism?

Desiree Brown: 19:31

Conviction Sounds a little better.

Vernon Brown: 19:35

But, just like in in all things that I do, it's okay, this isn't working. I need to do more. I need to exert more. I need to work more, and God's like no, you need to do less and pray more. I need to exert more. I need to work more, and God's like no, you need to do less and pray more. And so, um, like, through even worship, at transformation, um, they, they sent a song this is how I fight my battles. Or, um, I'm going to wait on you. Or what's the new song they just launched?

Vernon Brown: 20:00

Sustain, like all things pointing back to God's power through you, and not just your, your power, what you're able to do. And I, I truly believe that a lot of believers shy away from doing the work and doing what's required of them, and giving God seed, or giving God something to water and something to multiply. So I've went completely in other direction. I'm going to put all kinds of seed down here and I'm going to just do all this stuff and make it great and make it excellent, and I think God appreciates that. But God is also saying not to the point where you're self-sufficient. And so what I've been going through over probably the last two months maybe and obviously I haven't learned the lesson, cause I'm still in it, but learning to rely less upon self and relying more upon God. And he has a really weird way of doing it where you know I can do all this work and nothing will happen, and I can stop and pray and then just stuff just starts happening.

Vernon Brown: 21:07

And it's wildly frustrating because, because it's just not. It's just not how I'm wired, but it's the lesson that I'm supposed to be gathering at this stage in life. Yeah, that I'm very um not hesitant, but um, resistant is a great word. You know, we talked about your heels being dug in.

Desiree Brown: 21:25

Yeah. Yeah, that's easier to have faith in yourself, because you know what you're doing.

Vernon Brown: 21:31

I know if I work harder than this is going to happen. But it's much more difficult to say I'm still going to work hard, but it's God who adds the increase, and when God stops allowing you to believe what it is that you're doing is moving the needle, then it's kind of like okay, I need this lesson.

Desiree Brown: 22:07

Yeah, so well, I think it's interesting because you brought up the concept of reaping and sowing, which is, I mean, it's that's biblical, so that that is like a principle yeah you reap what you sow, and so the reason why I bring that up is because what I'm hearing you say is like you still got to, like the work still has to happen yeah um, but it's almost like, if you, you can, if you plant all the seeds in the fertile soil and you add the sunlight, but you don't add the water.

Desiree Brown: 22:46

Like you're, you were missing an ingredient yeah and that ingredient was god himself and it's like I don't know, something may sprout out of it like it's cool, but you, in order for it to like flourish like it's supposed to, you gotta make sure the god ingredient is like there.

Vernon Brown: 23:08

And then, if we're attributing in this scenario, attributing God to the rain I think there's a level of just God's grace that allows both believers and non-believers to sow and reap effectively.

Vernon Brown: 23:19

Like he's, he's so good and loving to where, even if you don't attribute it to him, there's still some success that just comes out of your action, like your heart still beats, although inexplainable, because of God's grace, whether you acknowledge him or you call yourself agnostic or not. And I think I think where our life is great but also very annoying is that we don't live a very great but also very annoying is that we don't live a very we don't. In a lot of ways, we don't live off of grace, and what I mean by that is like what we've done, what we're doing, what we're trying to do, what we're trying to do, not trying to do it, what we're trying to do isn't possible with just on free grace, with just on what's out there but it relies upon God's increase, and so I think, I think, with that in mind, for us to keep going, or for us to even stay where we are, god being the good father that he is, is not doesn't keep the bar.

Vernon Brown: 24:32

The same, it's like, what I expect of of our sons, vernon and Aaron, today is not what I expect from them in five years, and so the requirements have changed, and so we're just or I'm just running into oh, oh, that's not the same anymore.

Vernon Brown: 24:46

Oh, that, that grace that was there is different now, and it requires more to get the same of what I had before. Um, and so, with my heels dug in and with me fighting every step of the way, um, getting better and getting to that point, but then also, I think, part of it is learning what that looks like in this season. So more is required. Well, how do I get more? How do I give more? How do I live more? And what do I need to change about my life and what do I need to do on a consistent basis in order to stay within that place? And so I think a lot of shifting and changing is being required of me to figure out out, okay, what is the new requirement of this season and seasons in the future, so that I can sustain what I have and get back on that, that right track. Does that make sense?

Vernon Brown: 25:34

yeah, yeah, that's a lot it's a lot, but I think, um, I think the fruit out of it will be a change in that fingerprint we talked about.

Desiree Brown: 25:46

Right.

Vernon Brown: 25:47

To where you know what's required to get from zero to a 90 is a lot of work, but it's probably that work and more to get from a 90 to a 100 or 90 to a 95.

Vernon Brown: 26:02

I think I'm in that, in in the area in which I lack which is that perfecting is where that work is trying to take place and the behaviors and the habits of yesterday aren't going to get behaviors and habits of yesterday and just injecting more effort into those things Isn't going to get me to that 95 or to that 100 that I'm trying to get to.

Desiree Brown: 26:27

Yeah, so why are your heels dug in?

Vernon Brown: 26:35

what? What'd you say?

Desiree Brown: 26:39

do you just need more time to think about it, or do you really need me to repeat it?

Vernon Brown: 26:43

oh, that's a good question, um, well, I, I think, I think so. I have this mental battle, um, and I don't know if I'd like what's required of me, and so so what I mean by that is, um, on the topic of righteousness and holiness, if you will, I'm just throwing out all the holy words.

Vernon Brown: 27:22

There's a process of sanctification that happens in which is basically you living a life in which you are killing off everything, not like God, if that makes sense and my fear or my concern or my issue with that is I've seen a lot of people model holiness where they're so holy that they can't connect with anyone or have a decent conversation or just live life without being this never ending record of just God talk and I get it like, but I don't. I don't desire that and I know it sounds crazy to say, but I don't desire to be that person. I desire to be a person where fully in lockstep with God, but approachable and comfortable with everyone who God gives me to speak to. Um, and so with that, when, as you get closer to God, the pruning of some things is required, I feel like and I think it's just me working out with God what I desire life to look like.

Vernon Brown: 28:41

Um, in which he created me, so I'm sure he knows and recognizes those things, and I mean he knows those things. He may not recognize or care about them, quite frankly, um, but I, I just I don't want to be that person and so from my perspective, it's trying to figure out where do I want to live? And I am we've talked in a previous episode about me like kind of counting up the cost and deciding what's worth it, and for me I do it, and for me I do. I do not want to be that person because I don't. I don't believe, no matter how holy you are, if you are not able to connect and have a relationship with people, that you are in God's will, and so I don't know what it looks like when done well, and so I'm just trying to find who I need to be or who I am in that environment.

Desiree Brown: 29:46

Yeah, does that make sense? I know I said a lot, can you repeat?

Vernon Brown: 29:50

that in a way that's not so meandering.

Desiree Brown: 29:53

Yeah, so it makes sense. And what I'm hearing is just the models that you have seen of people who are considered holy, um saved. You know, like that it's been, it's been off putting in a way, because it's not relatable, and relatability and connection with others is, um, like you're really concerned about still being able to do that, yeah, even while walking in lockstep with God.

Desiree Brown: 30:27

But I think what's interesting about that is, you know, you have been looking at these human examples which fail because humans, you know which fail because humans, you know, and so I think really is looking looking to God, is looking more specifically looking to Jesus, because here's this guy, actually God like in the flesh, and hanging out with some real rogue people, like people who were just like not who you would expect for God to be hanging out with, but his message and his life and the salvation that came from his sacrifice. And so I think perhaps it's just digging deeper into Jesus's life and modeling more yourself, more after that than after the people who have actually deemed and described themselves as holy.

Vernon Brown: 31:45

Yeah, and I think it's. It's picking, picking his life apart too, um. So so one thing and I think I talked to you about it, but I was I was watching a lot of um Jackie Hill Hill Perry.

Desiree Brown: 31:51

Perry Hill, Jackie.

Vernon Brown: 31:53

Perry.

Desiree Brown: 31:54

Anyway, she's a pastor.

Vernon Brown: 31:56

And, um, it was. It was just a lot of her like not necessarily sermons, but just her conversations with people, and one thing, that one thing that, um, that I I saw her model was, and one thing I was unsure of if I wanted to adopt in my life, which sounds so crazy to say out loud. But, um, you know, you have some people who have a scripture for everything and everything's a scripture and everything's a scripture. And at one point, like, I found myself kind of being more like that and I wasn't sure if I liked it, because I feel like that can be off putting. But what I found in listening to how she communicates is wisdom is wisdom and knowledge is knowledge, and how that's presented is how it's presented. And so how she was communicating was a lot of scripture, but it wasn't like the Bible said.

Desiree Brown: 32:59

Yes, and you're going to hell if you don't. Yeah, it wasn't condemning Exactly. And so, as the I don't want to use the word. I'm using a lot of words. I don't want to use the word revelation.

Vernon Brown: 33:11

Just say, just speak Like what came to me in that moment was that the more you study, the more like Christ you become and the more naturally scripture flows through you, because the Holy spirit brings back to your remembrance. But that doesn't change your relatability, that's just the wisdom that's flowing through you in the moment. And so I I say my heels are dug in, but my heels are a lot less dug in than they once were. You're still dug in, but well, they're dug. Maybe not dug in, but I'm just going through this process of just not figuring out who I want to be, but figuring out who I am to be in God and like full connectedness with him, and how I can be who he created me to be. Period is what God would say, but I would add a comma who I, how I can be who God created me to be? Vernon's comma, um, without losing myself, but from God's perspective, is how can you lose yourself? If I created you? You're becoming more of yourself yeah, so it's like he has a period.

Vernon Brown: 34:24

I have a comma because I'm not wise enough to recognize that what I put in the comma is in the period it's a pruning process really yeah it's like the plant still is the plant, but it's got less of the stuff that no longer serve it on it.

Desiree Brown: 34:37

I think that you're just going through a refining process, really, and and I don't think that God's intent is to just okay it. God's intent is to change you, but not not like you don't recognize yourself at all in it.

Vernon Brown: 34:54

Like you, can't change an orange tree to an apple tree but, you can become more of an apple tree than you've ever been and produce more apples. Yeah, and a tree that produces more apples is unrecognizable to the tree that's barren right they look completely different yeah so yeah, and it's been a long process.

Vernon Brown: 35:10

I mean, it's gone from how I communicate and the word that's in the communication to, even before that, just being open and comfortable with being open and comfortable, like for the longest time I've functioned in a show I don't want to talk to nobody, don't talk to me Straight face, don't engage but just being comfortable with the giving and open and generous person that I am and walking in that and open and generous person that I am and walking in that. So it's just. I think it's just a process of becoming more understanding who I've been created to be and how that can look different than who I think I am today, but then also recognizing that me walking in that person is exactly who I was created to be and being okay with that.

Desiree Brown: 35:58

Yeah, there's two things that I have in mind. One is it's funny because you, you, I think you did kind of build up a shell and a persona and a wall of like like don't talk to me, don't mess with me. But what's so funny about it is, even with your angry face on, people would still be like hey man, let me tell you my whole life story. And you're like I thought I had my wall up, Like what is going on? Like why are these people just pouring themselves out to me, like, and it would happen all the time, even with your angry face on. And so it was something. It's something interesting about that because it's like, even though you were trying to be something, you were not or hide who you are, people still were able to recognize it, and it was the most unusual people that would do that. Yeah, like, like what you know, it was kind of it was really weird the people that open up themselves to you, people that you typically would not be, that you probably wouldn't talk to on a in a regular basis or not befriend in a regular scenario, but and these would be complete strangers, um, the other thing is just thinking about fingerprints as it relates to um transformation church. I think that that's also been kind of interesting because Michael Todd is a very um.

Desiree Brown: 37:20

He's just a unique person, like the way he dresses, the way he present. You know he, he has a background in, like the music industry. He's kind of like got some of that, that, those tendencies, whatever that means, like kind of those artistic, but also the um like he just kind of cool. You know, I don't know how to explain it, but you've seen him and God called him to pastor and pastor in his church, and so there was a lot of. I'm sure he's still going through his refining process because I don't know if it ever ends, but there's been a lot of refining that has happened.

Desiree Brown: 37:58

But he's still able to be who he is, but just with a different purpose or with a purpose. Maybe it wasn't, as maybe it wasn't purposeful at all before, but now it's like no, you're still you and these, and because you're you, you're going to be able to reach a lot of people. That typically would be completely opposed to the traditional way of doing things, but because you're a little different, people are going to pay attention to you more. I've seen that seems to be doing it well and pointing people back to God. Even with his, his personality and the way he communicates, the way he dresses, the way he just he's just kind of out there. But it is not for everybody and it does. There are people who are repelled by the way that he does or the way that he is, but I do think that God was very intentional about creating him how he did, because it's also reaching a lot of people who traditionally would not have been reached.

Vernon Brown: 39:03

Yeah, absolutely, and that's the purpose of the mission. Like I, I love believers and they're great, but you already in the boat, hopefully, allegedly like you're, hopefully on the right team, um, but the the true function and call of the church is, yes, to train you up and give you the tools you need to go out and do more, but it's really about saving lost souls. And so you know, I think I think they've been doing that a great doing, doing that successfully for for some time now.

Desiree Brown: 39:33

Yeah, I guess I want to talk a little bit more about. Okay, so fingerprints. The thing I said in the beginning was like I don't feel like I have a a strong like, oh, this is her. My personality is, I think, a bit more subdued. Okay, it's a bit more.

Desiree Brown: 40:01

It's definitely more gentle. Um, and I do think that one thing that became quite clear while we were there, while I was on the floor at this church, it got to like I need you to live out loud, like I need you to stop silencing yourself. You were never designed to be hidden and you have tried to hide yourself. Well, let me tell you what it looks like. It looks like you're an elephant behind a signpost, so people see you and they recognize you. Yeah, you look. You're looking real foolish over there. I was gonna say another word stupid, but I'm not gonna call myself stupid, but you're just looking real silly because you're over here trying to hide and but everybody can see who you are and even in your attempts to hide similar to how you were trying to hide yourself people would recognize you, they would call you out and be like no, you're a person I can talk to and do, whereas for me, I've, as much as I have tried to hide. I have stood up, stood out in every area of my life since I can remember and I have tried to shrink and God's like no, stop trying. So what does that look like? I mean, I think this podcast is one way that I'm being more open and being more out loud and more present. And it's not like hey, here I am, it's not. It's not like hey, here I am, it's not, it's not that, but it's more by you being open and you sharing more of who you are and how you are, that it's. It can be freeing for other people.

Desiree Brown: 41:52

Um, even I didn't tell this part of the story in the last episode, but I remember I was telling you my posture was submission, and so I felt like this urge, I need to get on this floor, I need to get on my knees. But that urge went even further the next time. We went on Wednesday where we're worshiping and it's the more stripped down acoustic type of version of it's not all the lights and all that, but it's just stripped down, just voices and a piano and less people there and I was like, okay, I feel like I need to get on my knees again. I'm still afraid, like, oh, what are you going to say to me? And then, when I got on my knees, god said no, get lower. I'm like I'm on the floor, what do you mean? Lay down? And so, for the first time in my life, I'm laying down on the floor, face down, worshiping God in a posture I've never that.

Desiree Brown: 42:44

I've never had that posture publicly anyway um, and it was matching the level of humility that I need to have because I've been so afraid about what other people think and he's like. First of all, that's pride, because who's even thinking about you? You don't even know what people are thinking about you, and for you to lay out like this in a public place, where maybe people are looking at you and maybe they do have thoughts but you don't know how you're impacting them, because perhaps they also felt they needed to be in that same posture, but they were afraid of what other people would think. They were afraid that their clothes are going to get dirty. They were just, for whatever reason, they chose not to.

Desiree Brown: 43:24

But here you are. Keep living like that, keep living completely submitted, completely live, completely humbled. Put aside your doubts, your fears, your anxieties, all the things that you have held up, bigger than me. Push those things down because remember, because I need to remember who I am and what I can do in and through you, stop hiding, okay, so that that's been it's.

Desiree Brown: 43:59

It's interesting to hear it from you, um, or just the way that we in the, each individually, have tried to mask ourselves. That's I know like I need I. You are exactly who I need you to be. I just need you to have your ear tuned to me so you know when I need you to go, when I need you to be. I just need you to have your ear tuned to me so you know when I need you to go, when I need you to go, when I need you to speak, what I need you to do like I need I need you to. I need you tuned in, real, like really tuned in. So that that was part of my experience, and so I expect to see more evidence of my fingerprints Now if I do the things god asked me to do, submit myself to him, but live, live, like bigger don't try to hide myself.

Desiree Brown: 44:48

I love that. So try to bring back the fingerprints.

Vernon Brown: 44:51

But that's some of the things that well, I can't wait to see it well, yeah, but I'm also still like very terrified by the idea. But I mean, I think, if you're living life terrified or living life outside of your comfort zone, oftentimes, not all the time, but oftentimes you find yourself in the will, or being challenged to be better.

Desiree Brown: 45:11

Yeah.

Vernon Brown: 45:11

And I think that's a good place to be. Yeah, better there than just out here doing nothing floating around.

Desiree Brown: 45:17

Yeah, anything else you got.

Vernon Brown: 45:20

I think that's more than enough. I didn't realize I was going to be on the Shades Lounge today.

Desiree Brown: 45:23

Yeah.

Vernon Brown: 45:24

That's your job.

Desiree Brown: 45:25

Oh, how you feel.

Vernon Brown: 45:25

You okay, yeah.

Desiree Brown: 45:27

You sure? All right, we'll talk about it offline. You want to close us out? All right.

Vernon Brown: 45:32

Yeah.

Desiree Brown: 45:39

So thank you so much, of course, for bringing your seat to the table and just listening and hopefully something that we said resonates with you. We always want to hear from you. Y'all have been doing what you need to do in the comments, so we need you to do what you need to do in the comments.

Vernon Brown: 45:48

Um, that be in the comments, but the rest of y'all be quiet yeah, so y'all talk back to us.

Desiree Brown: 45:54

We want to hear from you, we want to know, like we want to know what. What is your fingerprint right now? Are you, are you satisfied with what, what you see when you look around at what you've touched, or are you not? And if you're not, what are you doing to change it? And is God working in y'all, like he's working in us? Because, listen, we over here just getting, uh, we, we over here getting all kind of taught and it is uncomfortable, but let us know how, how things are going in your life. Also, like subscribe, share, um, we, we want this podcast to grow. I think we got good stuff, you know, but, uh, we want other people to join us and us to have some more conversations about God and when life and faith are colliding. So, thank you for joining us for Conversations at the Well. We will see you in the next episode. Until then, have an awesome week, have an awesome day, just have an awesome life.

Vernon Brown: 46:56

See you then.