Desireè Brown: 0:00

Hello and welcome back to Conversations at the Well we are. I think this is kind of going to be a confessional today. Hi, I'm Desiree Brown and I'm an addict, but you have to join us to find out what it is that I'm talking about and let's get into it. We'll see you at the table.

Vernon Brown: 0:22

See you at the well.

Desireè Brown: 0:24

Hey babe. Hey, babe, hey hey how you doing good, good, okay, it's been a minute since we've done a recording not a minute for them, but a minute for us.

Vernon Brown: 0:32

A minute for us.

Desireè Brown: 0:33

Yeah, we were like a month ahead yeah, but now we're not, so we got, uh, a lot to talk about and, um, one of the things. Well, first of all, okay, so I mentioned that I have an addiction social media social media. Actually, that's something I need to be working on too. Oh lord, I'm actively, actively. I know I don't know, but maybe others can relate to this but, the.

Desireè Brown: 1:02

The thing I've been thinking about is keeping stuff. Keeping stuff that has been a real issue for me for a really, really long time, and so I kind of wanted to unpack that here because I think I think that there is a move. Well, it's been put in my heart recently about generosity.

Vernon Brown: 1:28

Okay, keeping stuff Generosity.

Desireè Brown: 1:30

Yeah.

Vernon Brown: 1:31

Make it make sense.

Desireè Brown: 1:32

Okay, so those are in. They're kind of the opposite.

Vernon Brown: 1:35

Yeah, they're like on the other side of the world, right.

Desireè Brown: 1:38

Right. So, um, when I talk about keeping stuff okay, so I am maybe not hoarder level I mean you might say I'm grateful that I have you, cause you don't have this problem, You'll get rid of all the stuff that I'm like holding on to. But somehow I have developed a tendency to have like emotional connection to things and so I mean or maybe it's not emotional until I need to get rid of it then I realize, oh my gosh, I have like I don't know why I can't just like let this thing go. But I mean it could be like clothes. I mean I literally have clothes from got clothes older than me, literally no, not literally, but I have clothes definitely from like high school.

Vernon Brown: 2:21

Yeah, definitely from like high school, yeah, which is a long time ago. How long?

Desireè Brown: 2:27

ago, is it? It's a long time ago.

Vernon Brown: 2:29

Let's just say we just had our 20th reunion, so it's yeah, it's old, and that wasn't this year yeah, it was okay, I think when it.

Desireè Brown: 2:37

No, it was last year, about 25 was this year actually it. Technically graduation would have been this year, 20. Anyway, so 20 years ago I graduated from high school and these are items that I owned and wore in high school, you know it's the fifth of a century. You know what. But there's also the positive that I can still fit into some of the things. That's true. You know I haven't like gone too far off the rails I can't fit into.

Vernon Brown: 3:03

Nah now, or one thing, me now one thing. So we're going to celebrate that.

Desireè Brown: 3:09

Okay, but still there are things that I have. I mean and it ranges the gamut, there's material things that. I've kept for a long time. I think there have been maybe relationships that I've kept for maybe past their time, I mean that's a weird thing past their prime. That's a weird thing to say um, and that's just because I love people and like I love them in the season where you know that relationship was super important and I was just like I don't, I don't know, I just don't.

Vernon Brown: 3:44

So people, stuff, all of that you just hold on to.

Desireè Brown: 3:49

I just I hold on to everything for too long which is your, to your benefit, cause I hold on to you.

Vernon Brown: 3:55

That's true. Let's not get rid of all of that.

Desireè Brown: 3:58

Yeah, so there's a good thing about it, but but there's also cause.

Vernon Brown: 4:06

I've been thinking about this generosity, so I don't know I was still waiting for you to make that make sense.

Desireè Brown: 4:08

Yes, I was waking. I woke up in the middle of the night the other night and, um, usually that's my signal that God needs to talk to me, okay, so I woke up, I was like wide awake, it was like 3 40 am and I went and I was like what's going on? What's up? Hello, yeah, yeah, I was asleep. So what's going on? And I heard give. I was like give, what? And immediately there were items that came to mind that I've like never worn or maybe worn once. You know, there were things like that that came to mind, but I, as I, um, I opened up my Bible and I went to the index and I was looking up give and I couldn't find give specifically, but generous a generosity was in there, and so that's what led me to kind of look at these different scriptures and it was just highlighting how it is more blessed to give than it is to receive.

Vernon Brown: 5:04

Okay, and we say that, but what does that really mean?

Desireè Brown: 5:08

Yeah. So as I was thinking about the word generosity, I have this thing like I'll just like let the word kind of sit in my mind and roll it over in my mind. It's a weird way to explain this, but I'll just like think on it and see what comes out. What does it actually mean? Because I think generosity is a level beyond just simply giving, because you can give, and you can give begrudgingly, or you know you don't like really want to but you're like fine, have it. Or you can give, um, out of obligation. You can give out of a whole lot of different ways or different sentiments behind the giving.

Desireè Brown: 5:48

But generosity is about an intentional. It's not obligatory, you don't have to do it, it's because you simply want to or you feel, I want to say, compelled to, but that kind of gets back into the obligation part. It's not not necessarily that, but it's like it's an open-handedness that is a little bit different than simple giving. And um, it is with. I had this image in my mind of like an open hand. This is how y'all, this is how my brain works, y'all.

Vernon Brown: 6:17

I don't think I've talked to y'all how, like this prayer time of mine goes sometimes which is like we need like a whole episode on just how you approach prayer, because I think that'll be interesting.

Desireè Brown: 6:26

Maybe that'll be our next one. Okay, we needed a topic, so boom, all right. So it was like open handedness. I mean it was an open hand and the arm that was attached to the hand. I couldn't even really see the face, but the face was was receiving. So there was just like a bunch of items, just random clothes, maybe furniture, just like different things, and the reason why furniture in it. Yeah, it was like it's like a couch, just no, for real, it was like a couch on there, okay, and for real.

Desireè Brown: 7:01

Um, yeah, real strong hand, so maybe it's god's hand I don't know whose hand this was because I couldn't see the face and and maybe that's another thing Can't see God's face. But anyway, and this is, I'm awake. So this is not a dream, this is just like in my mind. So the and the head was turned away, not looking at what the individual was taking out of the hand, and I think that that was important, because sometimes, have you, have you ever been in a situation, um, where you have, like, judgment start coming up when you give something? Or maybe that's just me, maybe it's part of my like what do you mean?

Vernon Brown: 7:38

okay, how are they going to use it? What's? How are they?

Desireè Brown: 7:40

going to use. Yeah, like I know, I've had an issue where it's like uh, they're not even gonna take care of it you know I'm gonna give it to them but they're not gonna take care of it, or oh, they needed that, you know, like it's just, it gets weird it gets in it and it distracts from the purpose and the heart posture of just generally open-handed, you take what you need, but even what you want, or maybe it's like, oh, they're being greedy, they're taking more than what they need.

Desireè Brown: 8:07

you know, like that kind of a that it's like not that. And so generosity from this image that I was getting, which I do think was God's way of saying no, no, no, I need you to like give in a different type of way, in a way that is not judging of the receiver and in a way that is, um, like you don't even, you don't even look at what they're they're taking. You're simply, you maintain your joy and your heart posture of I I'm doing this because God asked me to and being extremely careful not to pass judgment on the receiver. So that's what I got. Um, one thing about you and I want you to talk about this a little bit more so you are actually far more generous than I am. People will be very surprised to hear that, cause it's usually they think of me as like the nice face, but you actually have the heart of giving.

Vernon Brown: 9:01

So I think I also try to cover too, like you know, I think, from a relationship perspective. I think for a long time relationships held some level probably well, definitely way lower than yours like priority for me. But I think I recognize that relationships are important to you and so in the areas in which you may struggle to not take care of them but like to do the generous thing, I try to hey you should do this, hey you should do that to kind of help and support that so you're doing that for me?

Vernon Brown: 9:35

well, what specifically?

Desireè Brown: 9:36

like the, the giving, yeah, I think. Well, not always, I think it's.

Vernon Brown: 9:40

I think in some cases, yeah, it's like if I'm recommending some person I don't even like who you just happen to befriend like yeah, that's probably for you. But I mean, there are other times where, like, I just want to. But for the most part it's like, yeah, I think I think this would be good for your relationship with insert person here, to do this for them, because it don't bother my life or my life either way.

Desireè Brown: 10:03

Well, let me ask you OK, let's talk about origin stories here Like where did this even come from? And I can start to. I can start, I don't know why it's up to you Go ahead and start.

Vernon Brown: 10:14

Okay, so what's your question?

Desireè Brown: 10:15

My question is where do you think that even the mindset of oh, I have something that someone needs, or there's an I in conversation, I recognize that there was something that they could use that I can provide. Like how, where do you think that came from?

Vernon Brown: 10:31

I think there's two. There's two things that need to happen for a heart of giving to have to to be there. Number one it's not holding too tight onto what you have. Like if you have a heart to give but then, on the other hand, like you hold super tight, it's going to count itself out, it's not going to, it's not going to work. That's me, that's me.

Vernon Brown: 10:52

So on one hand I think it's, it's not holding on too tight, but then on the other hand, I do think that we, we, some people are naturally more apt to give than others, like that's just what they do. And so to deal with the first one, like when I was growing up I was always in trouble and so like punishment of choice was like taking said thing away. So because of that I adapt and I no longer value stuff all that much because I just it's just what I had to be if I was going to be not depressed or whatever because of the way I chose to like behave in class and stuff. So with that I think that reduced my value on things to where it can get taken away at any time. So I don't really I can't hold on.

Vernon Brown: 11:33

So tightly to things, because if I did, I'm setting myself up for failure when I act up in class and it gets taken away. So I think that was just that, that kind of helped that side of the equation. But on the other side, I don't know where it came from, but I think I'm just like born that way to care and born that way to want to help people. Because I've just it's not who I've exemplified, but I think it's it's who I've always been and I've allowed or in the past I've allowed my experiences with people both good and bad, mostly bad to allow that part of myself to shrink. But as I get to know who I actually am and go with my go, with my gut versus my gut, bridled by my brain that that's that's who I am, that's who I want to be Like when I'm in my most authentic self and friendships I just give freely. I want to help, like if there's something I can do, I'm always happy to do it. But for me to be that, I also have to silence the thought of my mind of they're not going to appreciate it or they're not going to know what to do with it or they're going to take it for granted.

Vernon Brown: 12:40

Because when you're a giver, you can give.

Vernon Brown: 12:43

You can find yourself giving more than people would give themselves, and so when that shift happens, you in some ways become an enabler to their inaction.

Vernon Brown: 12:54

And so how I've rightfully or wrongfully addressed that is, I'll, in some people's life, like if, if they're running a business or they're doing something where I can be helpful to, I'll give, give, give, give, give. Then I'll, in some people's life, like if they're running a business or they're doing something where I can be helpful to, I'll give, give, give, give, give. Then I'll stop and wait for you to reciprocate Not reciprocate to me, but reciprocate in your own life, in your own business and put some. You know I may not even never say anything, but wait for you to take up your end of the bargain to see am I just doing this? Do I want it more than you? So I can think of situations now where I've given, given, given, given, given. And now we're in a pausing period where it's like no, if you want me to give more, you need to step up to the plate and take, take action, and if you don't, I'll never say anything. Um, you'll just think that.

Vernon Brown: 13:43

I don't know. I don't know what you'll think, but my probably won't even know this Exactly and that that happens a lot, and I don't know if that's right or wrong. Um, but what I do know is for me to protect myself in my time. I don't want to be in a position where I'm giving more than you're willing to give to yourself. Does that make sense?

Desireè Brown: 13:56

Yeah, that's a lot. It's a lot. There's a lot to unpack.

Desireè Brown: 14:04

And what you said, you, you talked about like your authentic self versus like who you had to, or who you became because of your thoughts about how it would be perceived or received or not received, or appreciated, whatever. But there was also this I give freely, like that's my natural inclination is to give freely, but I do have to temper myself based on how a person, um, like, how it's like, do they appreciate it? Like, are they going to use what I've given in order to continue to do well, because my intent was for them to do well?

Vernon Brown: 14:38

yeah, and, and this, this may be using scripture. Well, yeah, and this may be using scripture incorrectly for one's personal gain, or it may be soundly applied, but you know, in the scriptures there's the parable of the talents, where, you know, the leader goes away. He provides a servant with talents and expects a return on the investment, and so, where he plants his seed within them, in that time he expects for it to grow. And so a lot of my giving isn't necessarily like giving to homeless people or something. A lot of my giving is of my time and of my talents and of my thoughts and of me investing in people.

Vernon Brown: 15:14

And so I do have an expectation that what I invest in you, you invest in yourself and you grow it. I don't want anything from you. I don't like, I don't want anything. I just want for what I, for what I'm investing in you and choosing not to invest in myself, like the time I spend with someone, like literally going through what they can improve upon is time I'm not spending on my own. And so if I'm going to do that, more than happy to do it, more than happy to do it, more than happy to invest whatever it takes to get you there, but I expect for there to be tangible growth because if I invest my time in my own area, there will be tangible growth.

Desireè Brown: 15:54

Yeah.

Vernon Brown: 15:55

And so I think it's. It's that perspective. Like I said, I don't know if that's right, if that's how it's intended to be, but for I don't think there's a limit to how much I will give to someone who's willing to work on their end.

Desireè Brown: 16:09

Take it and run with it. Yeah, and I love that about you. I just think that's incredible because I'm not. I have not been that way. I have been more protective of my stuff, my things, my time, my talent. Like I'm using it for me, which is, quite frankly, selfish when I really think about it, because God didn't give me the gifts. Okay, so there's some other things I need to like talk about, but God didn't give me the gifts simply for me to just enjoy it. I mean for me to enjoy it and also to give it because it was freely given to me.

Desireè Brown: 16:47

The scripture says um, I've, basically I freely given this is paraphrasing I freely given to you and basically my expectation is for you to freely give to others. Um, or I've, really I it's in here, it's in the Bible, it's in there somewhere. No, I read it earlier this week. I just I think it's in, I think it's in Matthew. I'll just have to find the scripture. But yeah, it's, it's, it's it's you found it.

Desireè Brown: 17:23

Oh, I thought you were looking for it, but that's that's, I think, the issue, where it's not even just material things. I don't think I mean there were things materially that I thought of that I need to give. But I think God was like no, no, no, no, no, no, no, when we? That's a starting place, but that is not where I'm trying to get you to Like. I'm trying to get you to be more generous with yourself, because I put so much stuff in you and nobody can benefit from it if you just keep it to yourself. So you need to like be more intentional about pouring out. And I'll be honest with you, I think initially I don't, I'm not giving generously. I'm just like giving because I'm like this is very uncomfortable for me. It is outside of my comfort zone. I don't know why the giving.

Desireè Brown: 18:11

Part of the talking about the giving part the giving the actual action because that means that I need to put myself out more, which I think is I. I think I have. I think the hesitation comes not just from your experience, but just from the experience I've witnessed where people have been generous and it has not been appreciated. I think maybe that's a hesitation, but I also think that that's ridiculous, like it shouldn't. I shouldn't be basing how I choose to act based on the fear of it not being like, of it being rejected or not being appreciated or me losing myself. Probably this is even more so the issue like me, I don't know.

Desireè Brown: 19:09

I think I'm afraid of, like, somehow losing something. Yeah, by giving something I don't, but that's not that. That's the natural way of like. If I have water and I pour out the water, I no longer have the water, but in, in the spiritual, it's a little different, a lot different actually, because our pouring out somehow it's like, by us pouring out what we have, god replenishes those things, and not to the point of emptiness, like cause. You still need to take care of your, your own needs still need to be satisfied, but we really think about it. What we need is far less than what we think we need. Does this make sense?

Vernon Brown: 19:49

yeah, I. I guess what I'm trying to get to is where did that, where did that come from? In you, I mean, I think the easy way to say it is only child, yeah, but I don't think that really was a thing yeah in the, the natural sense. But, um, so I'm just trying, I'm trying to think through just what I know about you and where, like where, that could have been born out of, and maybe it's just out of just habit of this is just what's been normal, and normalcy has just kind of won the day for you.

Desireè Brown: 20:19

I don't know what do you? I think that it probably started just by the yeah being an only child.

Desireè Brown: 20:29

Shout out to my well, let me unpack it. I think it may have started there where there was a like I didn't have to share, and when I was like with friends or had an opportunity to share, I think I would. But it would still be like put that smile, like take care of it, it's mine, I want it back later. So it may have started with that and somehow it it grew up and look, it became a lot different, like before.

Vernon Brown: 21:00

It's like okay, you can play with my toys, but yeah, I think, I think I think through that lens if we're going to go down that path all kids start out selfish right yeah all kids start out selfish.

Vernon Brown: 21:15

so, whether only child or not, we all start kind of there okay. Now I do think people who have younger siblings or siblings at all are kind of forced out of it because your parents are saying share, share, share, share, share. So that may be where you kind of depart from the standard path, but I think we're still both aligned, because my sister was much older and out the house so I didn't I have a sibling, but I kind of didn't, like from the perspective of I don't think she was trying to take my GI Joes to high school.

Desireè Brown: 21:41

Like.

Vernon Brown: 21:42

I don't think that was going to happen, but but what I? What I also think, though, is okay. So you missed the first boat of getting off that train which would be sharing with your siblings. But then also, I think, like what was modeled as far as holding onto things and valuing what you have, could have been modeled by your parents too, and so it wasn't modeled from a selfish perspective, but it was modeled from a valuing what you had perspective, which in and of itself, is a very positive thing, but when not balanced with the overarching thought of no share, give whatever, I think that could have been a thing.

Vernon Brown: 22:20

And also like, as we're growing up as kids, like your parents give away a lot of stuff, but as a child, you don't really see that stuff that's happening you more. So, see, you know, okay, we've had this for 30 years, or 50 years, or whatever the number is Um, but there's a lot of stuff that your parents do and our parents do, and we do as parents, that our kids never have a chance to see, right, and so maybe that was one of those things where you have a chance to say, oh, that's where that stuff was going, it was going to a good cause, but maybe they never sat you down and said hey, we were giving, or this is what that looks like.

Desireè Brown: 22:51

I don't know Well, and so I think my parents definitely grew up in a different time and different situations, grew up in a far more privileged environment. I was one of one, still one of one, um, and so all of the resources, the time, the attention went to me and my growth and my development, all that good stuff, thank you to my parents. Um, they grew up differently. They grew up with siblings first of all, a lot more siblings, and they were, you know, maybe middle class, maybe poor, depending on which one of them you ask and on what day you ask them.

Desireè Brown: 23:33

I don't think they ever thought like, oh man, we're poor, but I think it was kind of a realization at some point, like, oh, there was a lot of things that we had no idea about a lot of exposure about and so I think the value, like you said, the value of things and keeping your things and taking care of your things, I think that it is very important, like you should be the good steward, like that's the biblical term. You should be a good steward over things, but essentially you should take care of what you have. But I think it was taken, um, I think it had, has maybe become for me and in the lens, like, like, just as you said, the lens that I have viewed it from, perhaps it took on a more. I'm looking for a different word than wicked.

Vernon Brown: 24:25

There's another word, there's definitely a different word it took on it, just it didn't, it didn't balance like yeah, one side, but not the other and they and they give, they give a lot.

Vernon Brown: 24:35

You know I added that on there, like they're, they're, they're very giving, and I mean it's nothing for her to be sitting in the car saying, hey, can you pick this up from the driveway to some charitable organization, but but what?

Vernon Brown: 24:46

I think we as parents, we we teach and then we live, but I don't think we ever challenge how we live to say how much of this is visible, like. So we may be in a situation where we have an argument that dusts up in the kitchen and that's in front of the kids and we'll then go sit on the couch and maybe talk through it or be fine in a few minutes, but what was within five feet of them was the argument, not the resolution of the argument. So, although we think we're modeling a great relationship and we are we came back together, we're fine. Now, what they saw and what pulled their attention perhaps was the negative more so than the positive, and I think perhaps in this instance it's that too that both were modeled. Balance was probably modeled in some ways, but when it came to what you saw more, it was well, we don't need to get that because we have this or keep this.

Desireè Brown: 25:43

Yeah, or I think I also wasn't really involved in that, like that was um, like my, my parents, my mom specifically. I think she's like okay, which is funny because she keeps things too. But she also gives things, and so she'll be like, okay, I need to do this, get to get to this, but um, I don't think I was.

Vernon Brown: 26:08

it was ever like hey, dad, you need to go to your room and you figure out what you no longer are using that you would like to give to someone else who might enjoy it whereas now I'm thinking about, like when my mom was telling me the other day, it was a thing every christmas where we would go through my room and just like clean and throw away and purge, like pretty much, because things would just get out of hand. And so I think, even both through my behavior and through like actionable steps every year, it was like let's go, let's turn this over, let's turn this over, yeah so I, as we're talking about the origin story, I think, think that that that's it, like it was.

Desireè Brown: 26:43

It was modeled, but I wasn't like made to do it, and so now I'm having and, interestingly enough, as you mentioned before I I want to be a giver, I want to be generous, but I am combating the addiction that I mentioned to like the stuff that I have, the sentimental value that this little worksheet that my kids drew, like some of that stuff, is fine to keep because it does it shows progress, it just shows their ability at that level and it's just maybe a memory that I want to keep, but not all of it like, not every single thing. Like some of it was not that good and it needs to go in the trash, you know not that good well you know what I'm saying like parents, come on, keep it real.

Desireè Brown: 27:31

We know some of that scribble is just like scribble, scribble yeah and so there's that but, and, and it makes me think about our oldest son, because he, I think, has the same nature that I do in that regard of like keeping things.

Vernon Brown: 27:49

I don't and honestly, this is where I think the balance conversation comes in, cause I don't necessarily think that he has the same like spirit or thing that you have, but but I think because he um, I often, or much like we talked about um in what's visible to children versus what's not visible.

Vernon Brown: 28:10

What's more visible is dad walking around the house with a trash can or trash bag than mom like hiding stuff away like literally, like there are times where I'm I just I get into my fits, where I get frustrated and I'm literally walking around with a trash bag and I'm over here like no, seriously, and I'm like no, it's sat here for three months like it's going in the trash, no matter what it is, and so I think, I think that's, I think I'm traumatizing him in the opposite direction, where he's like now hiding his most precious things under his bed Cause like I literally like that's, that's what I do, like I go and I throw stuff away, and so he doesn't see the things that you hide away or you store.

Vernon Brown: 28:54

He just sees that I know when dad inheriting because of how I show up in the world, kind of pushing him to the other side. So so I think the the the takeaway here is that it's balance that has to be found in all things, and there there are some parents that may say, you know, even even I may say your parents, well, she may not give, but I much rather her not give than be a horrible person and she's an amazing person. So I'll fix that. Like thank you for being a great person.

Vernon Brown: 29:34

But but I think in all things there should be balance, and so I think that's something that we talk about and we figure out how do we not do the generation to generation thing where we um, we flip flop so much to where each generation has to fix a different thing because they've indexed far too greatly on one thing or the other?

Desireè Brown: 29:55

Yeah, I love that and some people are saying no, actually I do. I'm saying this on camera. I actually I don't like when it's happening, because what happens is those emotions, that that thing that makes me ah, don't get rid of my stuff. Like I feel like I need to be the one to do it. But you do a great job of keeping our home like not cluttered, because if it were up to me, the whole place would just be filled with hoarders it would be awful.

Vernon Brown: 30:26

we'll be on TLC. I'm so glad that I have Is TLC still a thing.

Desireè Brown: 30:29

It's definitely a thing.

Vernon Brown: 30:30

We'll be on hoarders if that's where it comes from.

Desireè Brown: 30:34

So I really appreciate you for that, and I know it doesn't feel like it in the moment, because in the moment it doesn't feel like it to me You're like kicking and screaming and breathing calm.

Desireè Brown: 30:42

It looks really good in here. Okay, I feel the calm and the peace that he was looking for. Like I feel that because he got rid of some stuff that we really didn't need and I've also been trying to work on it in a sense of when things have been thrown away and me reflecting on it, I'm like I really didn't even miss, like I don't even remember what he threw away. So like, why was I so tightly holding on to that thing?

Vernon Brown: 31:07

so I I have been I mean, which, in part, is part of the reason why we're having this conversation because of that realization.

Desireè Brown: 31:13

Yeah, yeah, so I just wanted to. I want to switch the conversation a little bit. I don't know. Here we go. I'm going to say this part. So it is more blessed to give than receive.

Vernon Brown: 31:32

Well, I will tell you, um, you probably got like 20 minutes cause I didn't clean off my card, so so, um, oh, oh, okay, yeah, so you can decide whether we need to pivot to a new episode for whatever you're having, or if we can accomplish it in that we can accomplish it.

Desireè Brown: 31:52

So it's more blessed to give than receive, right? Okay, so, as I was unpacking that one cause, that was one of the scriptures that came to mind when I got that give and I looked up and it was generosity, and so it's more blessed to give than receive that scripture. As I was unpacking it, and I would love to know your thoughts on this too okay, I was like, why is it more blessed to give than to receive? Because, right, like from a natural perspective, like when I receive something like I feel blessed, right okay and I am blessed it is a blessing.

Desireè Brown: 32:23

It says more blessed, so it doesn't mean that you are not blessed by receiving something. Um, it is absolutely a blessing to for someone to think of you or for something to come your way that you weren't expecting as a gift. Lovely. But why is it more blessed to give? And I thought about that and I was, and what it led me back to was like that's literally what god does.

Desireè Brown: 32:45

Yeah, he gives and gives the world that he and he gave, he gave his only begotten son um, and, but he literally gives us everything in the beginning god created yeah, he get.

Desireè Brown: 33:01

He created, he created this whole world. He put us in it. He made this world inhabitable so that we can inhabit it. Well, I won't say so that we could, but he made it in a way where we could be. We could, um, be here and and live and thrive and grow and whatnot. He gave us life, he gave us the breath of life. He. Every good and perfect gift comes from god.

Desireè Brown: 33:26

That was another scripture that came so, like all of these things I was thinking about it, I was like, oh, oh, you're trying to get me to be like more like in alignment with you. Like what you do is you give. You give even the people who don't deserve to get your gifts rains on the just and the unjust it the sun, the rain, the oxygen, like every, everything, even the most basic of things.

Desireè Brown: 33:51

God gives it to us and he's like. It's not about people, it's not about if they appreciate it or not. I gave it because I wanted to give it. Boom, just like that. Sometimes I give because people ask for it, you know sometimes, sometimes or most of the time, I would say, sometimes, I would say, and I'm contrasting that to the things that he gives us, even if we haven't asked, like the air we breathe and the sunshine in the rain.

Desireè Brown: 34:20

Like we're not asking for those natural things to happen. It just happens and we are benefactors of those things happening. But we also have the ability to ask Whoever asks in my name. Jesus said, whoever asks in my name will receive.

Desireè Brown: 34:42

And so there is like this you absolutely can't approach God and say, hey, this is what I need, or even this is what I want, and God gives even those things too. And so when I thought about that more blessed part, I said, oh, oh, it's more blessed because it's me acting like you. Because it's me acting like you, it's me like. This is one way that I can like, tangibly be more like you. I can give out material things. I can give of my time, I can give of my talents. I can give a smile, I can give encouragement, I can give, simply because you gave, you've given me abundance, and out of my abundance I can share it with others.

Desireè Brown: 35:32

And that thing hit me so like it struck me in a way that it never struck me before and I was like, okay, so now did it change my behavior?

Desireè Brown: 35:43

I'm still working on this, it's still new, this all happened this week, but it's just like changing my perspective on the hoarding, that close-fistedness that I've had for my entire life, and not putting so much value on the thing, but putting more value on who gave me the thing, which is God Ultimately. It may have come through a person, but it came from God. He makes his people, the hand, his hands and feet Right. So if someone gave to me, it's because God had blessed them with the means or the material to share that with me. So I'm to do the same, I'm to do the same thing for others. So, anyway, I say all that to say like I I just I never fully understood, and I think there's still more to fully understand. I can't let me not declare I fully understand this one because you know it's so deep, but for me that was that's kind of a game changer, like that's kind of a, that's a shift because's kind of a that's a shift Cause I certainly.

Desireè Brown: 36:49

I mean it sounds good. It's better to give than receive, but I actually like receiving, you know. Um but there's a joy and a peace and all of these other things that come out of um giving.

Vernon Brown: 37:02

Yeah, and and I don't. I don't think we give that enough credibility. Um, how good you feel giving, and I think it's something that I'm always surprised about, Because even yesterday, yesterday, we were in the well and we had a class and one of our instructors, who's like amazing at giving, was just saying that she had heard somebody said they wanted something and, um, just ended up giving something to this person and there's like a lot of backstory around that individual and like, just like it was like that's so perfect.

Vernon Brown: 37:36

And to see the joy and to see, like, how touched people are when you just give, whether they ask for it or not, even if they just mentioned something in passing like that that does something. And that does something like tangibly and naturally within you, like setting aside God, seeing it and wanting to like pour more into you, because it's an open hand versus a closed fist. And so I do think that, even in from a natural perspective, there's a lot that you get out of it. There's a lot of feelings that you get out of it which go a long way.

Desireè Brown: 38:04

Yeah, yeah. So that's it. It's like you you still get something, even out of your, out of your giving even out of your generosity. It may not be like materially, but you get the, you get satisfaction, you get joy. There's, there, is that some peace.

Vernon Brown: 38:23

It's just like, and then if we, if we really reflect on it, it's like gratitude, because it's like I had the means to do it yeah and god, I'm thankful because you blessed me with the means to do this like it's just, it's so much one thing I've noticed, and I don't want to make a definitive statement because I think I waffle back and forth, but as I've leaned more into being a giving person, I do find some parts of my prayer life changing to God. Can I have so that I can?

Vernon Brown: 39:03

if that makes sense, whereas before I'd be like I just need this, I just need this, I just need this. But as I've grown and matured and I'm not perfect all the time, but sometimes like it'll bother me if I can't help or it'll bother me if I can't give, um, and and that'll make it into my prayer life. And it's not to say that just because I want to give to somebody, god's like okay, here you go, like no, I mean, but then maybe, but exactly Maybe, but. But I just think that's a testament to, as you said, um, to be generous and to be giving is to be more like God and, as you see that transformation happening, how that impacts more than just what you do with what you got, but also it impacts what you're asking for, what you desire. It says God will give you the desires of your heart and you know, as you get closer to him, your desires begin to look more like and have more of an appetite to be more like him, and so I think that's something that's pretty cool.

Desireè Brown: 39:56

Because there have been times where it's like I just I want to.

Vernon Brown: 39:59

I just ain't got it this month, or I ain't got it this week, I ain't got it.

Desireè Brown: 40:02

Yeah, yeah, but Maverick City and Kirk Franklin, you know was it Kirk? Yeah, he's on that song, I don't know what song you're talking about Bless Me, oh yeah yeah. Bless Me, God. Indeed, so that all these folks that are with me can have everything they need. And when that song? I guess it came out before we purchased the well, or maybe around that time, it's not that old is it.

Desireè Brown: 40:28

I mean, we've only been here about two years, so it is about three or four years old. It came out, I think, during the pandemic and, um, I mean, it was just like one of those things I'm standing in the well and that that song plays sometimes and I'm like god, yeah, thank you yeah because now we're able to bless other people, like how many people have come to us and talked about how blessed they have been by this.

Desireè Brown: 40:53

Because you gave it to us and we did something with it yeah, I'm gonna say that for the next one. I want to talk about.

Vernon Brown: 41:04

I want to talk about, I guess, the issue not the issue with giving, but why you're giving really needs to be aligned with God, more so than with what people give you back, because I know, at least in my life, like I'll ask people to do stuff, or people like I'll be being generous, and people think they're doing me a favor, if that makes sense.

Desireè Brown: 41:33

So it doesn't. I don't get it so like like. You want to save it for the next episode. Well, I want to get it out so that you can help me remember. Okay, cause.

Vernon Brown: 41:44

I'll probably forget. But, like there, there've been times where, like, I'll ask someone to do so, hey, can you help me with this, or hey, can you do this, or can you, can you, um, can you, can you lead something, or can you work in this area, or can you do it and I can do it, and it would be great and probably better, if I can be honest, it would be better if I did it, but then people turn around and take that as you're doing me a favor, where it's like, no, this just had nothing to do with you actually doing something for me.

Vernon Brown: 42:15

This is actually me trying to give you a platform to go beyond what you thought you could do but if I approach that from the perspective of I'm trying to help you, from the perspective of I'm trying to help you, like my natural would get so frustrated by your response that it would become something that doesn't resemble God.

Desireè Brown: 42:38

Whereas.

Vernon Brown: 42:38

I have to get to the point where, in those instances where it's all about God, so that I don't feel some kind of way when you act stupid, or I don't feel some kind of way when it doesn't work out the way it's supposed to work out, and I think that's something I need to work on in specific areas of giving, because there are some areas where it's like this like I'm asking you for something but I don't need it, like, in fact, it's costing me more to do it this way than doing it another way. But because the person doesn't see any of that and it's not their, it's not their point, like you shouldn't see any of that because it should be done in a heart of just true generosity. But if you attach your natural expectations to what should be done just for God, then you mess up the whole thing.

Desireè Brown: 43:23

I think you just brought the whole conversation full circle, because when we started and talked about generosity, you remember there was the hand, but then there was the head that was facing the other way.

Vernon Brown: 43:33

But I was going to treat that like you know how we have blind justice, but it's really not blind. I thought it was going to be fake like that, but you mean that is real.

Desireè Brown: 43:40

I mean like really you are open handed, you're giving simply because it's good to give yeah, and with no expectation. No expectations of what they. What like no judgments about what they take, how much they take. What they're gonna do with it is simply just give, that's it, because god could withhold a whole lot of stuff from us. Yeah, we don't deserve it.

Vernon Brown: 44:09

He's like no, I need you to be in that same posture so in next episode we're going to talk about the true open hand that's what you're telling me. Um, yeah, let's do it okay well, thank you so much for joining us here for another episode. At the well, we talked about desiree's addiction and hopefully she's getting over it. I think I am. I don't like an evicted wife. Yeah, unless it's to me.

Desireè Brown: 44:35

Thank you all. We will see you next time. Make sure you like, subscribe, share and bye. Bye.