Vernon Brown: 0:00

Hey there, in this episode we're going to be following up on our conversation about giving, but not just any kind of giving, open-handed giving. We talked a little bit last week about your addiction, but this week we're going to kind of dive a little bit deeper and hopefully encourage you and encourage ourselves because I need some encouragement in this area about truly giving with an open hand and an open heart. We'll see you at the well. Before we hop into the episode, I want you to take a moment. I know we're pausing everything. Go down to the little thumbs up button under the video. Click the like button, Click subscribe so you get notifications when we are posting videos. And then, don't be bashful, Hop down in the comments. We want to hear from you.

Desiree Brown: 0:41

We've been seeing the numbers go up and we're so excited about that, but we want to hear from you. We've been seeing the numbers go up and we're so excited about that, but we want it to be a two-way conversation. So make sure you're you're liking, subscribing, sharing with your friends and also just make sure you're commenting too, because you will you'll likely hear back from us likely hear back from her.

Vernon Brown: 0:57

hopefully we'll see you there and we will hop into our conversation for today, all right, right, so in our last episode we opened up what I think to be the Pandora's box. You may say the jar of peanut butter, whatever version or whatever scenario you use.

Vernon Brown: 1:12

We opened up a can talking about generosity and giving and you know, we kind of introduced the conversation saying we're a little bit different in that conversation but I think we both desire to be in the same place and I think we both still have a ways to grow in that area. Would you agree?

Desiree Brown: 1:30

Absolutely. So. It's kind of like with me. I think I have a problem with the initiation of giving, whereas you don't have that issue. Um, whereas you don't have that issue, I think yours may be with the, the heart like the the intentionality behind the good heart is cold like the grinch is? It's really not. No, I think you have a beautiful heartbeat, but what I'm saying is like, when it comes to generosity, we we talked about that. Generosity is actually a posture. It's like a heart place and not simply the act.

Vernon Brown: 2:07

And that is the root of what I think we're going to talk about here today Generosity, giving, what's the big word that rich people use? Philanthropy. Philanthropy is not an act, it has to be a heart posture, and the reason for that, just like you said, is because I can give all I want to give, but if it's done out of a poor heart or done out of hey, I'm giving only to give back, or even I'm giving for your reaction, or giving what we talked about last week was giving to help you more so than to fulfill a broader purpose of just giving. Yeah, you set yourself up for failure.

Desiree Brown: 2:43

Yeah, talk a little bit about that. Well, hold, you say philanthropy, philanthropy. You're really like you and you say all of the syllables.

Vernon Brown: 2:50

That's why I was like philanthropy philanthropy. All the letters are in the word to be pronounced philanthropy.

Desiree Brown: 2:59

So how do you say it?

Vernon Brown: 3:00

philanthropy.

Desiree Brown: 3:01

There's a phr in the middle philanthropy and I really want to be a philanthropist. But you can't say it first?

Vernon Brown: 3:12

anyway, what they say, if you got the checkbook for it, it don't matter if you can say it or not right, but so let's talk about that. So, so you have had the opportunity of seeing me give at my best, and me give at my best, which can turn into my worst in some ways. Kind of what have you seen? And let's start the conversation there and how it can improve.

Desiree Brown: 3:33

You want me to say what?

Vernon Brown: 3:35

I've seen. Well, I do the editing, so you can say what I just pulled out.

Desiree Brown: 3:39

Well, I know that there has been a. There's been some tension in this giving space, right, Because you mentioned it in the last, so I'm not going to call you out. I'm going to talk about things you've already talked about.

Desiree Brown: 3:55

In our last episode you talked about how sometimes you have given and given and given and given and given, but you've been a bit more reserved in in your giving, because your point is to help them out your point is like you want them to take it and to do something with it and all of that stuff, and honestly I don't think there's, I think there's nothing inherently wrong inherently wrong with it, but I just have wrong with it.

Vernon Brown: 4:23

That's all the other stuff.

Desiree Brown: 4:24

I add yeah, Because like when it becomes a well, I gave you this Like when we elevate ourself because of our being in the position to give to someone. Yeah. Then that's when it gets a little bit weird.

Vernon Brown: 4:40

Yeah, I don't know if that's really what, what, what guys wanted us to do so and I think you you mentioned like the root of it, like giving to help versus giving to give, and I think that's a really important thing that we often overlook. Like we clap and say great job for people who are giving, the act of giving, yeah, but I'm not sure we ever talk about the why of giving. Yeah, and for those of us who are believers, why the why of giving is much more important than the act of giving, because it protects your heart from getting into a negative place.

Desiree Brown: 5:16

Yeah, and I get. I think we should maybe review, just in case people didn't catch the, the part one, go back and watch it or just go back and watch it. But really I just want to like recap Um, cause it was. It came from this dream that I had or not dream. I was awake, I was. So what would you call that? A vision, maybe? Um, where I really felt like the.

Vernon Brown: 5:37

Lord was swinging like Tarzan or no, that's that's another dream.

Desiree Brown: 5:41

Okay, that's another dream. Anywho, what would you do?

Vernon Brown: 5:46

without me.

Desiree Brown: 5:47

I know it would be a lot less adventurous. I will say that, but anyway. So the vision was I was like hearing God talk to me about giving, and I had this vision of a I guess it was a person. I couldn't see the full body. All I really saw was the maybe, like I saw an arm of a I guess it was a person. I couldn't see the full body. All I really saw was the maybe, like I saw an arm with a hand, a hand, and it was outstretched, and there was a head, but the head was turned the opposite direction, not looking at the hand or who turned all the way around, just like, just like.

Desiree Brown: 6:21

Yeah, it wasn't like weird or anything I mean, other than like seeing a hand when there's, like, no hand. Maybe that's a little weird, but you know, anyway, this is how things happen with me. So, but this is the image that I saw, as it related to not just giving but generosity specifically, and so there were like all kinds of things. This must have been a ginormous hand, or maybe it was like really miniature items within the hand, depending on the perspective, but everything from like a couch to like a Christmas tree, to like, maybe clothes and shoes and whatever, but these were items stuff and something food, you know, things in the hand, and so the head was turned the opposite direction.

Desiree Brown: 7:04

So not to poison the heart with the visual or the the mental thinking of oh, you know they're taking, oh, what are they taking, oh, they must not have this or they must need this or head to hand, to poison heart Like, make it simple for me. I'm trying.

Vernon Brown: 7:21

Oh OK.

Desiree Brown: 7:22

Well, the mind is connected to our senses, right, and so we take out some of our senses it. It changes our perception right.

Desiree Brown: 7:34

So the sense of actually being visually able, because we do a lot of processing through our vision. Right, vision right, not to say that you can't if you don't have vision. If you don't have, you know your eyes aren't working. But there's a lot of processing that happens and so when you're looking, it was kind of like you wouldn't be looking down upon the people, the individuals that were taking out of your hand. Instead, you would keep your hand outstretched and allow them to take, as much as they want, everything that they need, without the judgment that comes that we often put on when we're giving to people. So like, even what we give sometimes has judgment. So like, let's say, there's a food drive coming up for people who are in need. It's usually around the holidays, it's kind of like a thing, right?

Desiree Brown: 8:27

yeah and so we might give our canned food, but all the food that we don't want to eat, right, it's like the canned beets or something like you know. Nobody's trying to eat the beets, but I never thought of it that way yeah, it's like your fridge is sometimes loaded up.

Vernon Brown: 8:44

You got turkey, you got sides, all of this stuff. A drive happened and let me give these cans that I haven't touched in months.

Desiree Brown: 8:51

Yeah, it's like a way to discard the trash, and so it wasn't. It wasn't that. It was like giving things that were, you know, some of them could have been used, but some of them could have been used, but some of them could have been new, but the the the thing about it is even that it's like oh well, they're hungry, so they'll, they'll, they'll, be grateful for these beats you know, and so that even has judgment attached to it.

Desiree Brown: 9:19

And so this, this, this vision, was really about taking out the judgment. The criticism of people who are on the receiving end of what you're giving is simply just giving. And only. You couldn't see anything, but you could hear the excitement. You could hear I didn't even talk about that part and I'm just kind of processing through that but you could hear, like. You can't hear smiles, but you can hear, like, what it is to feel joyful or to sound joyful, so you could. That's the experience that you're getting from this. When you have your eyes turned away and your hand outstretched, just allowing people to take what they need, and you simply get the joy of of of having made somebody else's day or week or year. You don't even know how much it meant to the individual. So, anyway, that's that really brought to mind, the that generosity is not simply about the act of giving something to someone.

Desiree Brown: 10:21

It's about the it's about the heart. Okay, yeah, giving is the act.

Vernon Brown: 10:30

Act but generosity is the heart. So how do we change our heart, like, how do we realign our heart so that it's in the right place?

Desiree Brown: 10:36

um, I think man prayer I'm gonna be honest with you I think it's prayer and I think it's it's intentionality. I think it's going into it like, okay, god, you don't withhold from me, you give me your best. Like anything, like I ask when I pray. I've started to adjust my prayers Like, god, I don't just want anything, I want your best. And God blows my mind every time and, granted, he has unlimited resources.

Desiree Brown: 11:03

But for us to give, I think it it starts with the intentionality of like I am choosing to give and even if I need to get, oh, even if I need to get, ok, let me stop.

Desiree Brown: 11:17

You know that scripture that talks about like don't let the right hand know what the left hand is doing, right hand know what the left hand's doing.

Desiree Brown: 11:28

It's almost like that. It's like if I have to give in a way where, first of all, I do it anonymously, so that I don't get credit for it, like it just seems like it came from heaven, right, so it doesn't always have to be this way. But like if that's where you need to be, at least initially, to get your heart in the right place, like do that. Or if you need to do it where you never see the people that are receiving from you, then that's what you need to do, Because all of those are simply practices in helping you to get to that place of no god. I'm just given just because you asked me to, not because, oh well, these people are in need and I, you know, I'm trying to get rid of these beats and these old green beans that have been in my cabinet for, you know, two years or whatever. So it's, I think prayer is the first place to start, but then, like putting in boundaries or parameters around yourself that will help you to not cast judgment or criticism upon those who are receiving.

Vernon Brown: 12:38

I like it. I like it.

Desiree Brown: 12:40

Yeah, so, um, I guess let's. I want to hear from you, because I want to hear from you about, about the part of giving that you've struggled with. Like would you consider, I've always said you're generous. Would you consider yourself generous, just like in light of how we've described it?

Vernon Brown: 13:01

yeah, I would say so, I I just think that, um, I I think there is generosity in moments and then there's generosity in um consistency, I think, and I think I'm rightfully generous in moments. But when that moment turns more into a consistent generosity with this, with a singular person, I think that's where my heart gets messed up, and I think it's, I think it's a component of two things. Like you mentioned, prayer being super, a super important part of this. But but I think we have to recognize ourselves. As you know, we have our natural body and then we have our spirit and our soul and they're at war with one another.

Vernon Brown: 13:55

And I think when we I don't want to make it sound like too- overly whatever but like when we think of ourselves too, too highly than we ought to there you go we can we can stop relying so much upon God to get us in the right place and so, as I'm listening to you talk and like listening to how the conversation or how the idea of giving should be anchored, it shouldn't be that, oh, I give because I want to be a good person, or I give because I want to be more like God. It has to be in submission to God and that submission has to come consistently to be able to not just check yourself when you give, but even check yourself when you look back on the giving that you did. Because in the moment I think my heart's in the right place a lot of times, but it's afterwards or weeks after or whatever, when I start to look back and be like man, you old joker, like I start to think like that, and I don't think it's necessarily wrong. But I think you have to be in a place where you're constantly looking back at. It's kind of like you're driving.

Vernon Brown: 15:00

If you're driving down the road and you're looking at the hood of your car, god knows where you're going to end up. You'll end up in a ditch or something. But if you look far to where you want to go, you'll be able to make the minor adjustments to get there. And I think too often we look down there. Okay, we point the car in the right direction, that we kind of focus on what we're doing, focus on whatever God told us to do last. But when we look up again, well, god over there and we way over here somewhere. And so I think the discipline of constantly checking in, not because you need something, not because there's a problem going on, but because I need to make sure I'm still aligned Doing that one and I don't want to say gives God an opportunity like he can't come and grab you by your throat but gives God an opportunity to be like no, no, no, you're off a little bit or to just keep that thing in your mind.

Vernon Brown: 15:47

So when you get into those moments at least for me where you feel like people are ungrateful, you feel like people aren't taking advantage of the opportunity that you gave him, gave them, Now I can say this isn't even about them, this is about you and your heart.

Vernon Brown: 16:02

And how can we get you to a place to where you can give openly and freely and without any, you know, expectation? Words came to mind. I don't like your word because your last word of integrity is still wearing me out okay, well, good, because apparently you needed that word.

Desiree Brown: 16:32

But humility came up, which you've described, and pride came up, which also you've described in your, in what you just said. And so humility, as I've been learning more about humility, and sometimes because I have been humbled, um, humility is that? Keep saying posture. I don't know, I like that word, but it it. To me it's like I'm a visual person, right it comes to posture. I like, can envision, like, uh, I guess with a humble posture, I can envision a person like kneeling or bowing, or like maybe even uh, just maybe it's just a bowing of the head, but just like some level of lowering oneself to someone in authority in this regard, we're talking about god and so just being, or maybe it's even to the people that we're giving, to wow, um what break that one down about that one, but like humility in the sense of if there's someone that you're giving to, you give it.

Desiree Brown: 17:46

You're giving it to them in a humble posture, like not making yourself bigger because you've given, but simply making yourself like just a servant essentially which God calls us Jesus. Jesus said you know, we will.

Vernon Brown: 18:02

We are servants which is like the hardest concept in the world, and I think servanthood and humility is just. We just get it wrong as people. Like even when you think about like okay, so our pastors are to be servant, servant, servants like number one servant, like last, last, last watching feet, if we're supposed to follow the example of Christ.

Vernon Brown: 18:30

But even in how we structure our churches and structure everything, it's not like that elevate, elevate, elevate elevate, elevate, where christ is showing us to get lower, lower, lower yeah and so I, I think I it's, it's just, I think it's such a, it's so bad, it's so backwards, um it's completely backwards, it's completely backwards, but you know, so often we would say that you know god, God does things so backwards, but we've normalized us as humans doing things so backwards and it's just like it's it's. I think it's so hard one to live that life and to recognize when you're not low enough. I don't know where I was going with that, but it just like it's a thing it is certainly it's countercultural.

Vernon Brown: 19:24

Yeah, it's counter desire, because you don't want to be low yeah it's counterintuitive really.

Desiree Brown: 19:29

It's like, oh, the, of course the person in charge, the leader, is supposed to get like all this honor and praise and all this kind of stuff, and God's like, okay, let's go back, go back to the book, go back to the book what? What did I tell you and what did I show you? What did I demonstrate to you? None of that, none of it.

Vernon Brown: 19:50

So all of that is your pride, all of that is your ego, all of that is you wanting to elevate yourself, and I don't think it's necessarily wrong, cause I think a lot of these things that we do have been birthed out of very pure and very biblical examples.

Vernon Brown: 20:08

Really, yes, but okay, give me more, so so so you know some, some people would say it's religion and not relationship. That would have you stand for the reading of the word. You just do it because that's what you've always done. It's just what you do. But I think there are very real facts and very real reasons for that. That's what they used to do in the temple Way, way, way back in the day. They would get their little parchment paper from a letter from Paul and read it and everybody would stand up and listen Really, because they didn't have it themselves.

Vernon Brown: 20:43

So letter from Paul and read it and everybody would stand up and listen, really because they they didn't have it themselves, so people would like this was your only quote-unquote like word, so they would stand up.

Desiree Brown: 20:47

Oh, but I just kind of put that in there together, oh, okay, but I mean like somebody was reading it yeah, that's where I assume it came from. I think it just came because somebody made it up. I don't think it's even a thing, but okay, it's just, it's a tradition. Wherever we came, it came from.

Vernon Brown: 20:58

We don't know, I think there, I think there are traditions that were created for a reason kind of like the ham in the pot. Thing yeah that we've just forgotten about the reason and we've never taken a step back to say does this make sense or is this even biblical anymore?

Vernon Brown: 21:13

we just do it, because we've always done it and we're okay with it. But if you know, people were dancing around a calf like, would you do that too, right? I think a lot of us would say yes, yeah, because it was just what was done oh, darn it, oh, they danced I probably would have been lord, lord, she'd be front and center dropping it like it's hot. No, maybe not all that.

Desiree Brown: 21:31

It was 1990 I don't drop it, like it's hot. I do dance though, okay, okay, but anyway, bringing it drilling fries and grease reeling it back in.

Desiree Brown: 21:45

Reeling it back in, um, I think, I think it is. It got us. I'm gonna say this and y'all gonna understand what I mean some god just doesn't make sense to us, but it's, it's a it's like designed that way because his ways are not our ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts. That part is in fact, in the book I don't know about the standing with the parchment paper, but but his ways are not our ways, his thoughts are not our thoughts and his reversal of all the things that we thought were true and wise and good, he's no stop it cut it out, which, even in that statement, further emphasizes how far off we are, because you said his reversal and the way we see things, or whether the way we thought his thoughts were way before our thought, right.

Vernon Brown: 22:35

So we didn't, we reversed it, we reversed it like yeah, it was in the beginning was the word, the word was with god, the word was god, it was settled yeah and then we came in and did all this stuff and made this stuff normal. Yeah, but what is normal should be? What is god? But we and we put our thumb on things.

Vernon Brown: 22:54

But I love I love where the conversation is going around humility, because that is it's a great thing to say. It sounds real cool and it sounds real like oh yeah, let me go be humble, but it sucks.

Desiree Brown: 23:09

Or doesn't? I think it doesn't more than it does. Okay, break that one down to me. Because do you? What is it? Oh man, blessed are the meek, for they show, I think.

Vernon Brown: 23:32

Let me see I'll get it for you.

Desiree Brown: 23:33

Keep going to matthew gosh, I need to read my bible more. I know the stuff, I just don't know the stuff okay ask holy spirit holy spirit help me. I know blessings are pure in heart. I got it. No, I was right. Okay, well as we talk about humility I was right about what it means to be meek. I was right for they should let her at the.

Vernon Brown: 23:59

Yes, that is so wrong, but so perfect timing Like this is me. All right.

Vernon Brown: 24:06

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. Blessed are the hungry, and blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the children of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you who, when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you. Because of me, rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Desiree Brown: 24:54

So here comes Jesus. He's having this big old sermon on the mount. It's all these people listening. What'd you say?

Vernon Brown: 25:02

I was just reading, he said this is good. Yeah, it's all good.

Desiree Brown: 25:05

Oh yeah, it's God's word. It's good, Right, so but but what's so interesting about that that teaching, I think, why it gets so much like? I think most people have maybe heard of at least one of those scriptures.

Desiree Brown: 25:20

Yeah, but the interesting part of that is like none of those positions are ones that we want to be in. We don't want to be meek, we don't want to be humble, we don't Well, I guess meek and humble kind of are the same we don't want to be poor in spirit, we don't want to be merciful. Judge them, no, send them whatever um off with their head, um, just. You know we don't want to be in in any of those positions. But god calls them blessed, and the reason why I brought even that scripture up, even though I couldn't recite it you knew it, you just didn't want to be wrong.

Desiree Brown: 25:56

I didn't want to be wrong. Um, actually I got it mixed up with one of the others. I'll see you were blessed are the pure in spirit, for they shall see god. I was going to say blessed are the meek, for they should see god, but that's not it.

Vernon Brown: 26:08

That's not what it says yeah, I was wrong.

Desiree Brown: 26:10

I am meek unlike somebody to say I am meek is not meekness. But, um, the whole point of me bringing that up is cause you said it, it, it. You know it sucks to be humble, but it's like but but it, but. God said it. It doesn't. God said that you will be blessed because of it and you're like, maybe in that, maybe in that moment, it does not feel great, it doesn't feel great in that moment, but there's a blessing that's attached to it and so certainly it's like, do we want that experience of? Do we want that? Um, what's it called the self? What's it called, um, instant gratification? Do we want instant gratification, which is that is our culture? Is like, soon as it happens. I want like, if I boom, boom and everything's getting faster, but there is this thing about, I guess, exhibiting this self-control and this temperance that says, okay, this may not be what I want right now, but I know that there's a bigger and better outcome that may happen later down the road yeah, and I think it.

Vernon Brown: 27:22

I think, as I listen to you, what you're saying. I think it does suck if you're led by your natural senses and it doesn't suck if your main desire in life is to please God.

Desiree Brown: 27:37

Yeah, yeah, that kind of that kind of hits hard right.

Vernon Brown: 27:40

That part.

Desiree Brown: 27:41

Well, I was thinking okay, so you know, we started like giving our kids money for their work.

Vernon Brown: 27:48

Yeah, so they can't remember to clean up their bed, but they can remember when it's payday. Well, anyway for their, for their work.

Desiree Brown: 27:54

For their work. They had been getting paid Not a whole lot, but just like a little enough Right, and so in the car this morning I gave them their first payment, their first paycheck because we were running late. I had to make it work, so I gave it. It's back at home right now because I was like I can't take it into school because I don't know They'll probably lose it, or yeah, I don't know, tear it up or something.

Vernon Brown: 28:16

Get an airplane out of it Right, put it on a roof.

Desiree Brown: 28:18

Yeah. So anyway, we talked about like using part of it for saving, part of it, for giving their offering, and then the other part they could spend. And I said, okay, guys, well, what do you want to do? You have this amount and do you want to save it or do you want to spend it? And they said, well, we want to buy binoculars. I said this is came from a conversation with my mom yesterday. They said they want binoculars, whatever, so they want binoculars. And I said, well, binoculars cost more than what you have, so would you rather buy something that you can, you can afford now, or would you rather save it to so you can buy your binoculars later? I want to spend it. That was aaron. Aaron said I want to spend it. I said, well, baby, like then you won't be able to get your. He said I want binoculars. I said, well, your binoculars cost more than what you have, so you like, it's a concept that's not quite what did burn, say burn said hmm, he's more, he understands it a little bit better.

Desiree Brown: 29:24

Conceptually, he's kind of pondering what he wants to do. I don't think he made his final decision, but, um, it's, I think of it kind of like that right where it's like we have it in our hands now, so we have the opportunity to receive our reward now, which is the pat on the back from having given to a person like, oh, thank you so much, like thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. And you're like like oh yeah, I feel so good about myself because they're thinking I, I put it together, I gave it to them, and now now people are saying thank you to me, so you're getting your reward then and now. But if we are humble, that gets stored up for later, which is a greater reward, because god said that he would bless it yeah.

Vernon Brown: 30:08

But so here's the thing, and I had a conversation um about this idea or not idea about the topic of salvation. So getting into heaven, kind of step one. Step two is you know all the things you do here on earth stored up for you and blessings or whatever that looks like because we don't know in heaven and I get that and I get that we should.

Vernon Brown: 30:36

I should say I understand that and I understand that we want stuff stored up for us. But I think the point of this whole thing is not let me do this so I can have. It should be and I'm not saying this is it for me, but this is to me what the book says, but this is to me what the book says like we should be so invested in just pleasing a.

Vernon Brown: 31:10

God who gave us everything, that, whether there's something stored up or whether it's not Right, that should be enough. Yeah, and this is where my mind takes over, because my, my first thought is like, man, that would be cool to get there to the point where you just want to please God so much that it doesn't matter what happens, like that's all you want. Um, but then my mind kind of takes over and be like well, what are the implications of saying that out loud? So anyway, but I think the the the main takeaway is, when we're talking about generosity and we're talking about humility and all the words that go along with it, how do we get to a place where it's not about the people, it's not about the show, it's not about posting on social media, it's not even about the feel good of seeing them excited, but it's about making God smirk in heaven.

Vernon Brown: 32:03

And what can I do to do that? And maybe it's not even this, maybe you could care less, but regardless, I'm doing this, not for you, not for them, not for anyone, but for God in heaven, and for that to mean so much and carry so much weight that it's not words, it's actions, that it's not work, it's not actions that are, you know, veiled with personal gain, but it's actually a, an experience or an action of humility that we do humbly to serve and to please our father in heaven.

Desiree Brown: 32:32

Yeah, I'm not there, I'm not there, but I, I, in theory, I want to get there. But to your point, it is like, well, what is the cost? There is a cost that's involved and there's a refinement that's involved. But I think that that's part of this whole journey, right, like he's working these things out. That's probably why we're talking about it now, because hopefully, prayerfully, god willing, he gives us a whole lot more life and 30 years from now we'll be looking back like man, I, what, that was just the beginning, like I'm so different than I was then, um, but you know, it's just it's, I don't know, I, I would, I think I would want to be there, like, I think I would want to be that person, um, but there's still a lot of me in me. That's kind of the hindrance. At least we recognize that.

Vernon Brown: 33:31

Yeah, and I think it's just to go back to the scenario of driving down the road. It's recognizing that there's a target and continuously checking in on that target, because you could very easily give to somebody with the wrong heart and say, good job to me, I gave. But to recognize that there's a target that may be a little bit different than how you perceived it before and, with that understanding, to change your behavior, to say how can I do this better? Like, if I really want to give of my time, then it's not about me giving my time the way I want to give it or in a way where people appreciate it, it's no, I'm giving my time to please God and so in submission to God. So what happens when I get there to give my time?

Desiree Brown: 34:20

Yeah, I do think. Okay, here's one way I struggle. One way I struggle is in fulfilling the obligation, obligation of towards, to, to those that I owe in some way, so for like job, okay, okay. So time is expected, like in in um exchange for my time and my work, I get paid Boom. And so I think I have put a lot of emphasis there because of that exchange, where there are other things that arguably are more important that I haven't given the same amount of time to or effort to, because there's not a a.

Desiree Brown: 35:26

The exchange is different give me a real example that's not incriminating for me well, I mean like, okay, even family, like we, I think is generally understood that we spend more time at work than we do at home, and so the relationships that we have in our home life whether it's a spouse, a partner, children, you know, maybe parents or whatever we aren't pouring the same amount of time and, dare I say, effort into those relationships when they actually are more meaningful and will have more lasting impact than that of our job a couple episodes ago and I'm gonna come back to what you said a couple episodes ago we were talking about um resting and then we went on this challenge of how's it?

Vernon Brown: 36:23

going well it well, no, no, okay, no, but it went good for until last week you don't think so no, no, because the last two weeks we've been working no last week we worked because we built the door and we put in the stuff, but the week before that we built the bench and painted the floors.

Desiree Brown: 36:44

That oh okay. Yeah, we haven't had a restful.

Vernon Brown: 36:48

I can go back on my calendar and tell you the last time we had a restful, we were doing good until two weeks ago which was probably Anyway, whatever the number is Regardless like we had like a good two, three month period where it was like great, yeah. So I don't know if that challenge is ending or whatever, but we'll set that aside. But we'll set that aside. What I would like to propose as a new challenge as you were talking this scripture came to mind, specifically the end, but I'm going to read the entire section, because it starts out with something that we're pretty familiar with Colossians 3, verse 18 through 25.

Vernon Brown: 37:24

Okay, it says Wives, submit to your husbands as fitting in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them. Children, obey your parents and everything, for this pleases the Lord. Fathers, do not embitter your children, for they will become discouraged. People have a lot of issue with Slaves. Obey your earthly masters and everything, and do it not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence to the Lord. This is what I want to get to. Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart as working for the Lord, not for human masters, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs and there is no favoritism. So what I think and the reason why I read the whole thing it was titled instructions for Christian households, which I thought you know we should probably do those that might be a good idea.

Desiree Brown: 38:29

Yeah, follow instructions. For household we're Christian or what you know, but for a week.

Vernon Brown: 38:35

Do you think that we could live out verse 23,? Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart as working for the Lord, not for human masters, since you know you would receive an inheritance for the Lord as a reward. Do you think we could do that? And what that looks like is I want our eyes to always be aligned with our nose, meaning that the task at hand is what we're focused on. So when you're at work, you're at work. When you're with family, you're with family. Like just to see what that would look like for a week. I would love to do that. What's your hesitation? Or there is no hesitation?

Desiree Brown: 39:16

I got adhd tendencies, so my eyes are all over the place yeah, but but I think, I think it's it's.

Vernon Brown: 39:23

It's a broader commitment, probably not for you, but more so for me, because to work your task as unto the Lord means that you have to be focused on the Lord for what you're working, working for. So that's God, give me the focus to be focused, because we can't focus in and of ourselves.

Desiree Brown: 39:42

And what do I need to focus on?

Vernon Brown: 39:43

Holy spirit like tap me or snap me back into place when I do get unfocused. Yeah. Um, tap me or snap me back into place when I do get unfocused. Yeah, um, and Jesus forgive me when I fall short of this focus like I love it.

Desiree Brown: 39:59

I think people probably listening are like I wish y'all would go ahead and follow that now, because y'all are so all over the place.

Vernon Brown: 40:05

Um, no it knows following your eyes when I'm here. I'm focused here now. There may be there will be times where your attention needs to go other places, but when it goes there, yeah, I'm there I'm contemplating, I'm just.

Desiree Brown: 40:25

This one makes me more nervous than the last challenge yeah why, because I don't. I'm just my the way my brain is like I don't even. I literally try to do this every morning.

Vernon Brown: 40:36

I'm in my prayer time, but but and and even listen to listen to how we've been trained, the way my brain is.

Desiree Brown: 40:44

No, that's not your brain well, somebody's brain, the brain don't think you. So you think god made you all over the place and all over the place yeah that's what god. That's what god intends for you I don't know, it's just so what it is that I'm like. I don't know, is there a?

Vernon Brown: 41:04

he was like, he was like making, like drawing. You and jesus said something in his hand slip, and that was your focus.

Desiree Brown: 41:11

That's what happened maybe I don't know. I don't know if I got it all um, I don't know, but but I'm willing, I'm willing to do it yeah, and then are we doing just 23?

Vernon Brown: 41:24

are we doing the whole section, because 23 is a lot. But then we got in here fathers, don't embitter your children, lord what does that mean?

Desiree Brown: 41:32

I've always wondered exactly.

Vernon Brown: 41:34

It means like don't unnecessarily tick them off, like yeah let me see what king james says. Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged provoke them to do what so that's me walking around with a trash bag. Don't provoke your children, provoking them to be anything and it specifically says fathers yeah not mothers.

Desiree Brown: 41:56

What are mothers not supposed to do? Y'all?

Vernon Brown: 41:58

love. Y'all know y'all love like unnecessarily love okay and then being a parent. Love your wives and don't be bitter towards them. Jesus, yeah, I think, I think I mean and the wives?

Desiree Brown: 42:13

no, we need to do the whole thing.

Vernon Brown: 42:14

I think, wives, submit yourself to your husband that's easy unto the lord compared to the husband's, not to be bitter I mean, whatever you think it is, um, because you don't have to do that part.

Desiree Brown: 42:26

I think we could do that. But actually actually that's a verse I didn't remember where it was in the Bible, but I know the scripture and I think about that often, especially when I want to do other things that you don't want to do. So I submit yourself to your husband as if unto the Lord. What?

Vernon Brown: 42:43

kind of stuff, other than go to like your Indian place that or just like anything.

Desiree Brown: 42:48

Like okay, we need to talk about the business right now. I don't want to talk about the business, I want to go to sleep, actually that conversation does always happen, like 10, 30 yeah, or I'm doing something else and can I borrow your eyes? I'm like so what do we do in those instances? If you say, can I borrow your eyes, and I'm working as if unto the lord, do I say no? That's a good question I said no, let's say no, I'm focused.

Vernon Brown: 43:16

Well, I am working unto the lord, I do think there has to be. We are like all over the place. I do. I do think there has to. This is how our conversations go. We try to figure stuff out, but I do think there has to be space for us to out and figure stuff out, but I do think there has to be space for us to aid each other in remembering what we're prioritizing this week, as well as space for us to communicate that we're prioritizing what we chose to prioritize this week. So I think you can't be in your feelings if I say what.

Desiree Brown: 43:48

We're going to have to do it next week. I'll be out of town next week.

Vernon Brown: 43:55

I'll be out of town this week. I can do it, you. Just that takes off.

Desiree Brown: 43:59

Well, no, no, no, wait a minute. I guess I mean because it doesn't say only when you're in town.

Vernon Brown: 44:04

Yeah, because it should be a lifestyle.

Desiree Brown: 44:06

All right, we can do it. It'll be easier for you because you won't have as many distractions or we'll do it for two weeks and once I'm back, when I get my week out the way, I might be done with this or not, because it's the word. Are you supposed to be doing that forever?

Vernon Brown: 44:21

okay, so yes, let's do it we're gonna do it for this week and next week when I return this week in a pop, one week in a pop, and, yeah, just try to live out making your eyes follow your nose and it may result in a horribly unfocused and unproductive week. Yeah, or it may be the best week we've ever had, but I think I need you and this is probably more for next week than this week to like remind me a lot. But what should be happening is I should be spending enough time with God to where the Holy Spirit can do it.

Desiree Brown: 45:00

So how does this relate to generosity? I think it's related, but I want to know how you think it's related.

Vernon Brown: 45:05

Ask me a question that you need to answer to.

Desiree Brown: 45:09

That's our topic, oh, yes it this.

Vernon Brown: 45:12

This is training your heart, posture to do whatever you do heartily as unto the lord and not to men boom oh, you know, see, we weren't off base, we weren't we really weren't.

Desiree Brown: 45:25

I mean, it's all. It's all if it's god, it's going to align right. It's going to align right, it's going to make sense. But yeah, so, going back to our generous conversation, because I think that means to be generous with your time and your focus and your attention on the tasks in front of you, on the responsibilities that God has given you, so which?

Vernon Brown: 45:46

which is crazy because and I'll just add this in here and then you can go back to what you're saying Like it makes you really think about what your role is supposed to be in different places. So for me, when we come to the well in the evenings, is my role to work on the business and try to design better emails and better touch points for people? Is my role at that time to exercise as a student, or is my role at that time to um?

Vernon Brown: 46:21

interact well, interact. I was gonna say like, share god's love but interact with people and help them to feel seen and recognize when they're not themselves. And what does it look like to be wholly focused on that and not trying to busy myself so I don't have to talk to people?

Desiree Brown: 46:38

Well, I guess that's for you and God to figure it out, huh. But I want to say something, but I feel like it's going to open up a whole other can of worms. I feel like we're over our time, but so we had our morning prayer call this morning our women's group.

Vernon Brown: 46:57

I was out as I was praying like praying before you pray or praying for that, like during that, I don't know some point in prayer today.

Desiree Brown: 47:06

that's how you know you prayed too much Go ahead.

Desiree Brown: 47:09

I heard, I felt or I don't know how to explain it, but I got and I believe it came from God that the word of God, the Bible, is our code of conduct. It's our code of conduct, but the spirit of God is what we're to follow after, and what I mean by that is the, the book. It tells us how we're supposed to behave in different situations. It tells us, like there are literally laws in there to say this, this, this, this, this. It tells us about when people follow God and when people didn't follow God and how God responded to each of those in all of those scenarios. Right, it shows us Jesus and it shows us his walk and how he interacted with people, especially those that he didn't, that they didn't like him.

Desiree Brown: 48:05

But yet he loved people who betrayed him, all of those different things, but yet he loved people who betrayed him. All of those different things, all of those scenarios are kind of all laid out in the word of God code of conduct. But then there's there's the spirit, and it does talk about the Holy Spirit in the Bible and talks about those fruit of the spirit Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. I memorized those. So, because it says to live by the spirit, so I like, okay, okay, spirit, where we going, what are we doing? Um, but, and it says, against such things there's no law. Those fruit of the spirit, there's no law against it. God can't be against god. That's just. That's just the way it works.

Desiree Brown: 48:45

Um, but I say all this to say I think following after the spirit of God allows us to live in real time. It can't, because our life is not in biblical times, because we, our life is in currently 2024. Some of those things are not happening, or maybe they're happening in a different way or what have you. But what remains the same as god and following after his spirit and in following his guidance in our daily, in our daily interactions with others and with ourselves. That's.

Vernon Brown: 49:32

That's what we're supposed to be doing it's a great topic for next week or next, okay, um, the scenario I want to offer to see if it aligns with what you're saying is what I think I hear you saying is like the bible, or the laws in the bible are like the signs on the side of the road, like stop signs, yield signs, merge signs. Your exit is coming up in 15, 20, whatever meters, whatever that looks like. Those are the laws of the land. However, the spirit would be an example of how you navigate through and with those, like you said, in real time. But what happens if the exit is closed? Or what happens if the sign gets knocked down? And so there are changes that need not changes.

Desiree Brown: 50:20

There are flexibility, and it's hard to say flexibility, but there are no-transcript. Yeah, that's where I was. Yeah, that's where I was going. No, really that's.

Vernon Brown: 50:56

That's kind of yes. That's a very good way of articulating what I was trying to communicate, so next time we're going to talk about the spirit.

Desiree Brown: 51:03

I love the spirit. That is my Holy Spirit is my favorite, my favorite person. Can I say that? Can I say it's my favorite person of God? God, I guess because it's like with me and like actively, I don't know, because it's all God right.

Vernon Brown: 51:13

I don't know if I could say that, but I just love the Holy Spirit oh, you said I don't know if you could say that I thought I thought you said is.

Desiree Brown: 51:22

Can I say he's my favorite person, but you said what you were saying is my favorite of the Trinity yeah, father, son and Holy Spirit, because Holy spirit's like like right here, like right right here but you kind of need jesus for that yeah, you do and you need god for all of it, okay I don't know if you have a favorite, can I have a? I don't know can I have a favorite?

Desiree Brown: 51:42

but, holy spirit, like a you know because you got to and you're jesus and I love you anyways, thank you so much for joining us for this conversation at the well.

Vernon Brown: 51:52

We talked about humility and we talked about giving with an open hand, and we ended up with a challenge in which we're hoping that you'll go on this journey with us, where we try to live out the scripture as written in where was it? Colossians, chapter three, starting in verse 18 and going down to verse 25. Are we able to truly allow our eyes to follow our nose and do the work that we've been tasked with at any particular time as unto the Lord? That's going to be what we're doing this week and probably a little bit of next week.

Desiree Brown: 52:22

Yeah, let us know what you're doing too. We want to know. We want to know what you're doing, like. Let us, yeah, how? Tell us what you are, are, if you're going to join us in the challenge. And we would also like to know, once you have done it, given a week of really focusing in on the scripture and trying to live it out, what was the experience like? Did anything change? Was anything better, worse, did it remain the same? We just want to know, like, because I don't know.

Vernon Brown: 52:48

It seems crazy, but and we're doing this from monday to friday.

Desiree Brown: 52:52

That's because I don't know, it seems crazy, but and we're doing this from Monday to Friday.

Vernon Brown: 52:56

That's not a week.

Desiree Brown: 52:57

It's like it's a podcast week Friday to Friday. Oh, you don't want to do that. You don't want to follow God's instruction over the weekend. Is that what I hear you saying? Anyway, Can you say it louder?

Vernon Brown: 53:06

I don't think they heard you For another conversation at the well, we will see you next week.