Desiree Brown: 0:00

Hello and welcome to Conversations at the. Well, I'm Desiree and this is Vernon, and in this episode we are going to just share with you some of the experiences that we've been having lately as we go on this really interesting church hunt journey. So join us, pull up a chair and we are ready to get into it.

Vernon Brown: 0:19

Welcome. Welcome. Welcome to Conversations at the Well.

Desiree Brown: 0:21

You switched it up. What Good morning. Good morning, good morning, okay you didn good morning.

Vernon Brown: 0:24

Okay, you guys should do that no. What should I do?

Desiree Brown: 0:26

no, that's fine, I was just, I'm just messing with you, could you? That was up like?

Vernon Brown: 0:30

that's new. Yeah, I'm trying on new stuff. It's a new season, okay, all right, let's see. Okay, good morning, good morning, good morning, and welcome to conversations at the well. We just had a whole conversation before we turned the camera on about me not doing. Good morning, good morning, good morning and switching it up and I was like no, it feels right. So good morning, good morning, good morning, oh, whatever time of the day you're watching this? That's true. Good morning, well, good afternoon and good evening doesn't roll off the tongue like good morning.

Desiree Brown: 0:59

So remember the truman show, that movie it was like a really popular it sounds like it was in the 30s.

Vernon Brown: 1:04

It was like in the 2000s. The truman show, that movie it was like a really popular.

Desiree Brown: 1:05

It sounds like it was in the 30s, it was like in the 2000s, the truman show, okay. Anyway, the truman show was a movie, yeah fact check it but he was. He would be like good morning, good afternoon and good evening or good night or something like that anyway. But you kind of just did a little truman show 1998.

Desiree Brown: 1:21

It was not in the 2000s okay, it was close old I mean old, okay, whatever, yeah, actually at this point it is old yes, 2025, dang, that's more than 20 years ago, two decades that was 27 years ago.

Vernon Brown: 1:37

That's wild you're so old you don't even know you old anyways. So today we're talking about this church journey as we shared, I think, first first episode season two second episode season two we mentioned it in a previous episode.

Desiree Brown: 1:49

We kind of just slipped it on in there, yeah.

Vernon Brown: 1:51

Slipped it like an envelope. No, slipped it like a mint the old ladies used to do at church.

Desiree Brown: 1:55

Slipped the tea like a little mint. Oh, who's old now?

Vernon Brown: 1:59

I'm saying old ladies that were slipping it were old, but you're in it from that time frame, so we have been looking for a church home and it has been the most interesting, eye-opening experience, not just because we're out of practice, but as we realize, since we've been down here in Mississippi, we've literally only been to one church Actually, two, because there was a funeral that we went to at another church and that wasn't church service. But we've literally actually no, because then the bishops?

Desiree Brown: 2:26

Oh yeah, Coordination.

Vernon Brown: 2:26

Coordination. What is it called? Installation, installation, installation. So we've literally stepped foot in three churches. Only one church for Sunday service. So this is a completely new environment, completely new situation. We find ourselves looking for a church home. It has been an eye-opening, interesting and I don't want to say difficult but complex is that the right word?

Desiree Brown: 2:51

it's. I don't know if it's complex, but it's just been interesting yeah, interesting, challenging in different ways.

Vernon Brown: 2:59

Yeah yeah, I'll go with that frustrating in different ways.

Desiree Brown: 3:03

Yeah, but we're keeping on going, so I wanted to get the first question in. You got the first question.

Vernon Brown: 3:09

Because you got questions listed, but I was like I need to get mine off first.

Desiree Brown: 3:12

Okay, go ahead.

Vernon Brown: 3:13

So I think, obviously without having a church home at this point, the natural question is you know one, you know we need to find a church home, but do we? We need to find a church home, but do we even need to find a church home? Because I always say my pastor is in Tulsa, oklahoma. And so, from your perspective, when you look at virtual online church versus in-person church, why, if at all, do you think in-person is important and what do you think you miss out on? Or do you just think that online isn't for you?

Desiree Brown: 3:42

Kind of tell us a little bit about that on, or do you just think that online isn't for you? Kind of tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, so for me I well, I really enjoy in-person interactions period. I just think that there are my. My day-to-day work is virtual, like I work remotely, and it's always interesting when you work remotely and then you meet with those same people that you've been meeting with remotely, like you know each other, you've talked and all of that stuff, but there's still some things that don't quite translate in real life. Um, and there's some things you get you get a more three-dimensional view of them, first of all, but also they're outside of the box that you typically see With the perfect lighting sometimes, yeah, and so you get to see them, know them, understand their mannerisms a little bit better.

Desiree Brown: 4:34

Some of the complexity and then the conversations that naturally happen in an in-person situation happen that don't typically happen online. And so for me, for church, as it translates to your question, I think the same thing applies. You can get something out of it. I don't think that it's irrelevant. Or if you're traveling or if you're in a situation like us where we're kind of in between church homes, I think that there's a place for it. It's really nice in the middle of the week if you just want to listen to a sermon or what have you. But I think that that in-person interaction, like there's some I don't even know what exactly it is it's hard to define, but there is a. There is a, I think, really important human element about in-person interactions.

Vernon Brown: 5:22

Yeah, cause I mean, when you compare it to the workplace, with the workplace with the people that you sit next to or work shoulder to shoulder with, you at least get a watered down version of connecting with them. But when you're talking about online church, there's no interaction with anybody except the pastor that chances are, if they have a good live stream, you would have never met anyway. Right, so you're just getting the word. You're kind of, I'm want to say, starved from everything else, but I do think that there are some elements that do add some value, and even in large churches they have the small groups. They have, you know, just people you meet walking in and out of the place. Like, I think I see what you're saying there.

Desiree Brown: 5:55

Yeah, and even in our last when we went, we did go to Tulsa, which we talked about in season one we went to Transformation Church and remember I was telling you about the young lady I met that prayed with and over me. That wouldn't have happened in an online experience. And so I just think that there's some things that are important and that naturally happen when you're there in person that doesn't translate in the virtual experience. Again, I think that the virtual experience has its place and is useful for a number of different reasons, but I think for my everyday thing, I feel like I would be starved from part of that experience that I enjoy and that, in a way, I feel like I need.

Vernon Brown: 6:44

Do you think that in the next 10, 20 years that in-person church will completely go away ever?

Desiree Brown: 6:51

I know it's been said that that might happen, but I don't think so, because I think people will still be starving Like we live in this time where we are literally the most connected we've ever been. We can send an email across the world in less than 10 seconds.

Vernon Brown: 7:05

Less than five seconds.

Desiree Brown: 7:07

What did you say? 40 seconds if you're writing it I mean, the writing is a whole other beast, but the actual sending, the transmittal, it happens so fast so we can connect with people at speeds and in distances that we've never been able to do in all of human timeline, right. But we also are the loneliest people and so I don't think that a move in that direction would be sustainable long term.

Desiree Brown: 7:36

I think people be like oh yeah, that's kind of cool, like it sounds nice and then, like three months later yeah, or it might even take longer to realize it, but people will be like oh man, I feel isolated, I feel lonely, I feel something's missing. People need interaction. That's why covid was such an interesting uh, let me choose my words carefully interesting experience. Um, because we were in our homes, like we had to stay away from other people, and it was we would be on social media. We're like watching Instagram watching YouTube and whatever else.

Vernon Brown: 8:19

What was the DJ's name? Dj Envy.

Desiree Brown: 8:23

DJ, I know you're talking about? I can't even think of his name right now. But yeah, so we were watching him. We were watching versus tv and we were watching like all of these people, but yet we still were like I miss people like I want to go outside, like can I get outside?

Vernon Brown: 8:37

we outside remember we outside.

Desiree Brown: 8:39

It was like the whole thing, because people wanted to be amongst people. People missed it. Even the most introverted of people, I think, still missed some of that human connection element. So, to answer your question, do I think we're moving in that direction? Um, I hope not, I don't think. I don't think so. I could be wrong, but we'll see. I would not be an advocate for it, not for solely virtual, but I mean if I don't have to drive in for a meeting that I can do online, like that's cool.

Desiree Brown: 9:14

But sometimes you just need that. Even in my work world, being a remote worker, I don't want to go into the office just to be there for myself.

Vernon Brown: 9:24

Like if.

Desiree Brown: 9:25

I'm there in the office by myself, like that is not okay. But if I'm there and my coworkers are there, it's fantastic. I love that interaction. So for me my preference is in person. For sure, Got you.

Vernon Brown: 9:39

So we are.

Desiree Brown: 9:40

I'm curious about what you think.

Vernon Brown: 9:41

No, no, I don't want to be only church online.

Vernon Brown: 9:44

Yeah, no, I'm surprised by that. I think it's fine and it's cute and I think it serves a purpose in a particular stage of life, like where I'm just like I need direction, like just give me the direction, like all the other stuff cool, whatever, I just need direction. Like that serves in that perspective. But I do think that the human connection portion is really important and, as like you said, working from home becomes a thing. There's no places where you can, within the flow of life, meet new people as much as in church, and so I think it serves a huge purpose and I think society would be at a great detriment if that were to ever fully go away. Or we would just have to learn how to actually communicate in spaces out that aren't curated for us, like you can't just go to a restaurant, or you can't just go to a fast food place and just be in your own bubble. Like you would actually have to go outside of your bubble and talk to people because there would be no other forums left for that.

Desiree Brown: 10:34

Yeah, you know it's interesting and this is kind of an aside before you get to your next question I think that that has been part of what has made the well successful. It's a place of community and connection, and I know that was intentional, we wanted that, but it would have been really tough to do this and maintain that type of connection if we were still in the COVID era, where we were not allowed to meet in groups, and so I. But I think that people come I mean they maybe, and they enjoy the workouts, but I don't think people are like, oh yeah, I gotta, you know, I gotta go get my workout. And maybe some people are are, but I think it's more like, no, these, those my people, like I gotta go see my people, those are, you know. So I think that that has um flowed into just our what we, what we do through our business.

Vernon Brown: 11:35

Yeah, I would agree. So we are four. Is it four weeks or five weeks into the new year? How many weeks are we into the new year?

Desiree Brown: 11:41

we are in the sixth week one, two, no one.

Vernon Brown: 11:49

No wait. One, two, three, four, five. We are five sundays in to the new year and we have visited four churches. Because one church one week.

Desiree Brown: 11:59

You were playing hooky yeah, one, one week we didn't go because we weren't sure where to go and we had friends in town and we were just like yeah, we were like, we just don't want to take blame it on the malics yeah, we didn't want to take them to just like a place we hadn't yeah gone before. So yeah, so, so yeah, we've done four churches at this point and um so we've been new visitors yeah so what is that what?

Desiree Brown: 12:23

we've been to big churches yeah small churches, yeah, um y'all know it's unfortunately a very segregated kind of situation. We know that the church is probably like the most segregated place yeah, yeah on us like any day of the week.

Vernon Brown: 12:40

So we've been to predominantly white churches, only black churches. Yeah, we well, not a lot.

Desiree Brown: 12:45

We've tried four. We've tried four and um, you know we were trying to find our fit. There were some really good things about most of them. So here before what's important to you about a church Okay, so while I'm learning is, it's very important to me to have some type of new member process okay, like not, not new member, new visitor process. Like somebody, there needs to be a somebody to help me know where I'm supposed to park oh, that's true there needs to be somebody to know.

Vernon Brown: 13:16

Tells me like what door to enter so we went to these big churches, y'all, and I'm like I don't know what the front door is, because this is like it looks like a mall, so we just walk in random doors, ended up being a janitor's club.

Desiree Brown: 13:29

I'm kidding but even the smaller church we were like what are we supposed to go in here?

Vernon Brown: 13:34

or what, but it was.

Desiree Brown: 13:36

It was yeah, it's been interesting. And then, like you know somebody to greet you, direct you, like, acknowledge that, huh, you're, I haven't met you before. You knew here, you know, just to greet you, direct you, like, acknowledge that, huh, you're, I haven't met you before. You knew here, you know, just to help you way find because signage has been an issue, I mean especially at big church. The big church, I liked the big church, but it was like where do we go it?

Vernon Brown: 13:57

was a little overwhelming.

Desiree Brown: 13:58

They had like a whole information desk, I feel like, because it's so difficult to navigate and even even that it didn't say information desk it was hard to look like one yeah and so we were like, well, maybe we go there, yeah, maybe we go there and figure this out, but I'm I'm learning that. I like when I feel welcomed, I like when there is some again some type of process in place to help me to figure out where to go. I'm also learning. Well, definitely, teaching is a big thing for me, like I want to be under good teaching. Okay, sound teaching, biblical, lead-based, holy Spirit-led.

Vernon Brown: 14:40

Weird question but very pertinent. I'm going to say it. It's going to sound crazy, is? I'm going to say it's going to sound crazy and I'm explain. It is like the Bible important to you, meaning that like there's a, there's a thing or a practice or a style where you read a scripture and then you never talk about the scripture again. It's just kind of there as like your little verse of the day. Are you okay with that, as long as the teaching that comes behind it is sound, or do you want the teaching to align with the scripture or to point back or reference the scripture?

Desiree Brown: 15:12

Definitely, my preference is for it to. What did you say?

Vernon Brown: 15:17

There was a word reference.

Desiree Brown: 15:19

Yeah, thank you. Reference or align with the scriptures, okay, because otherwise it's just a story, otherwise it's just, it's something weird just happening here. Otherwise it's just a like a speech. Right, I'm not there to hear a speech like, I want to know the word of god, I want to know how I'm supposed to apply this to my life. So that is, um, that's important to me. Okay, and then what else is important to me?

Vernon Brown: 15:49

Why Singing, you know?

Desiree Brown: 15:54

I love a good choir. I actually prefer a choir over a praise team, really. Yeah, it's kind of old school, but I really like a good.

Vernon Brown: 16:02

Robes and no robes.

Desiree Brown: 16:03

No, they don't have to have the robes, but I just love the sound of like many voices and praise. It's just so good. It makes me. I have chills thinking about it, but I love that. I don't have to have that, though, and I prefer a gospel style of music. But a good Christian contemporary is I'm a good, uh, christian contemporary is I'm down with that too. I just want it to be feel, feel spirit led, because it's one thing to be singing and it's another thing to be singing as of as if unto the Lord. That's a whole different experience, and you can, you can pick up on it. The congregation audience, they pick up on it, and so I think that that's most important. Um, as far as, like, how it's presented, I welcome teaching a lot right.

Vernon Brown: 16:57

Possibly music, but not really.

Desiree Brown: 16:59

Yeah.

Vernon Brown: 16:59

Like I would want it, but if I got to give up one of them, I would give up the music. Yeah, Sadly Um Like I would want it, but if I got to, give up one of them, I would give up the music.

Desiree Brown: 17:12

Yeah, sadly Asking for a lot, I am Okay, but that's okay. So I like connection. So there was one church we went to that was, I think, really good at that and that was like through those life groups, oh, yeah, oh okay, that kind of like through those life groups.

Vernon Brown: 17:25

Oh yeah, oh okay, that kind of connection, okay cool.

Desiree Brown: 17:27

Yeah, um, like some way where you can talk to them, maybe reflect on what you heard in the sermon. Perhaps it's your, maybe it's a Bible study or Sunday school lesson that you all are meeting over, but just some additional way to connect with the other people at the church.

Vernon Brown: 17:54

So in a business sense they would call that reducing the friction. Like usually, if you go to a big church or you go to any size church, like the people who are there already clicked up, like they already have their friends, and there is a friction or a barrier sometimes to starting that first connection, somebody has to put themselves out there, somebody has to start the conversation. You have to go through that weird sizing up phase, but with a small group what I hear you saying is you not desire, but you enjoy the fact that that barrier to entry is kind of reduced because you're already meeting around something some like, some like topic or some like interest.

Desiree Brown: 18:33

Yeah, and I mean I think you'll still have some of the like sizing people up and all that. It's just, you know, when you're meeting new people you kind of are trying to figure out the dynamics and kind of how you fit and where you fit or if you fit. All of that still happens. So I don't think that that's completely eliminated, but it does help you to figure out your point of connection and if that particular group doesn't work for you, you have options to choose from other groups or other things of interest that connect you with the other people. Because I think that that's the big part about church, like, yes, the sermon is very important and I think that that is probably the like. Maybe like the foundational, like the word of god is the foundational portion of it, but it's the connection that keeps people coming, I mean, because otherwise, like you say, you could just watch it on TV or internet or whatever.

Vernon Brown: 19:27

Yeah, so the presence of small groups a deal breaker for you.

Desiree Brown: 19:32

Um, it's not a deal breaker if there's an opportunity to so for you. Um what? What have you discovered? Anything new that's important to you from this experience?

Vernon Brown: 19:52

Um, I don't think I've discovered any deal breakers. I think one thing I desire is I would like to be led by a pastor I admire in some way, like it doesn't have to. I don't have to admire your teaching style, I don't have to admire, like everything that that you, that you would assume, but there has to be something that I admire about you, cause I think through that lens, I look at you in a different light, as you know, as you have something that I desire and I want to learn about how to get that, and I think that that's normal for any type of mentorship relationship, where you would want to be led by someone. You want there to be something that you admire about them. So I think that's something that I've been able to better understand and put words around.

Desiree Brown: 20:36

Do you think that that's because of your calling in the ministry?

Vernon Brown: 20:44

I don't. I think, regardless like there should be something, like if you lead in me is just to do like there should be something that you do. That I think you do very well and I would want to gain or glean from you, even if it's just your understanding of the word. But I think if you're ever critical about your thought and your relationship with God and the teaching that you sit under, sometimes you may find that even a particular leader's understanding or study of the word may not be something that you admire if you look at it more critically, because sometimes, let's be honest, we look at the position and because of the position, we just believe that whatever you say is right. But there's been times where you've heard something and you've opened up the word and you'd be like not even that ain't right, that ain't in there.

Vernon Brown: 21:37

It ain't in there, or that, that verse you quoted that we like love to hear and you know you could just quote off the top of your no that they'll never give you more than you can bear, Like even when you say it wasn't, it's not that's not the verse that you just said and so a lot of the things that we just take for granted and we just assume that that means that you are holy or spiritual or understand the word, sometimes aren't even the case.

Vernon Brown: 22:04

But you know, I think sometimes we so respect the position that's been bestowed upon someone that we don't even think about or consider or reason through who they are.

Desiree Brown: 22:19

That's interesting. I have a controversial question for you. Does it have to be a guy?

Vernon Brown: 22:22

no, no, because they're. They're ladies talking about oily fish. I can't remember what her church's name was.

Desiree Brown: 22:31

She was viral. It was the bacon.

Vernon Brown: 22:32

Nobody was fishing there. I wasn't talking about you gotta cook fish in oil. Yeah, you gotta cook something else in oil chicken in oil. Yes, I don't really care. Like to me, I know there are some, some beliefs about what a woman can and can't do. About this word, though, like, yeah, I don't care whose mouth it comes from. Like about this word, like, yeah, you and whatever you believe and whatever God thinks. Like that's y'all problem. My problem is me trying to get to where I need to go, so I could really care less who it comes. Through the lens of Now, I do think in 2025, there are more controversial topics and more controversial leadership styles and those who are leaders in which I may have a little bit more of an issue with, just because I'm not where, I'm not to that place in that area, but as it pertains to just women in leadership, kakerlis, if you preach, you can give me the word yes, please In abundance.

Vernon Brown: 23:25

I got my rotation. I got Mike Todd, I got Sarah Jakes, and it used to be Furtick. But there's another one. Priscilla, yes, but she don't be in the pulpit that often I haven't, at least I haven't listened to her recently and then, um, what's the radical guy? You mean? I don't even think I shared with you the 2819 guy. Yeah, he's, he's like jackie too oh yeah. Well yeah, I've gotten off you got a lot of.

Desiree Brown: 23:49

You got a lot of the 2819.

Vernon Brown: 23:50

I gotta let you listen to some of his stuff. He's real radical so you might be like whoa, but yeah, I get down with him okay, so it's a lot of it's.

Desiree Brown: 23:58

It's interesting, like in that lineup there's like two male preachers, actually a couple more female teachers that you unpopular opinion.

Vernon Brown: 24:10

yeah, I believe and this comes more so from the workforce than just, specifically, pastors. But I believe because of the what's the word? Where I believe something before I met you Bias, Biases or stigmas, or there's a specific word I'm looking for. I can't think of it but because of those things that exist, especially in the workplace as it relates to women. I believe that women have had to work harder to get to where they are, to prove themselves, and so in a lot of cases they're more studied, they're more prepared, they're more learned in a lot of things.

Vernon Brown: 24:47

Um, because they have to be, to be able to work, you know, three times as hard to get to the same place, and I don't think that's any different in faith and belief. And I think your studying, especially as it pertains to the word through the power of the Holy Spirit, goes a whole lot farther in teaching and preaching. And so you know you could say, Eileen there are more women that I appreciate the teaching of than men, who I believe sometimes can get a little more comfortable in their place because they may not have had to work so hard or they may not have that voice in the side of their head that always says you're not good enough. Unpopular opinion, but that's how I think.

Desiree Brown: 25:26

It's an interesting perspective. So are there other things that you talked about admiration as a key factor? What are some of the other key factors that you found are important to you in this church search?

Vernon Brown: 25:38

So my big thing is I think that churches don't need to be huge, but I do believe that they need to work as unto the Lord. And so I feel that many churches and this may just be my youth speaking or whatever but I do believe that many churches are so excited to get volunteers or people that will show up to do something that they accept any old thing, and so their quality is horrible because they just need somebody to do it or they get tired of doing the work or whatever that may be. And so a big thing for me is I believe that if you do C work at your job, then you should at least do C work for God. But so often we do C work at our jobs and give God D work, whereas God should get A work. If we're talking about churches in this house, so like little stuff, like starting on time and like to me, the the roles that are important is probably your pastor's teaching and your greeter. Everybody else like cool that grace for everybody yeah, great, but those two like no.

Vernon Brown: 26:51

When you come into the house, it should feel different. You should feel seen. Somebody should be looking at your face, seeing of you about to commit suicide, or if you're okay, because that's like because people are really dealing with those things. Yeah and so I shouldn't get the same dry macy's welcome when I walk into the church as I do for macy's welcome to macy's or actually macy's they.

Vernon Brown: 27:12

They be on it welcome to family dollar, like you just asked that, because statistics show that if you speak to me, I won't steal like that's the kind of welcome really yeah literally, that's the welcome you gave me like so I. So I know that, you know that, I know that I'm here yeah, but at church. It shouldn't be some obligatory. Hey how you doing that's so interesting.

Desiree Brown: 27:31

Um, I I mean because, honestly, I feel like a lot of the department stores do a much better job of greeting than in the church. Yeah, because they want you, they want your sale.

Vernon Brown: 27:43

Yeah.

Desiree Brown: 27:44

But the churches don't act like they want your membership. It's not about membership, it's just like or your presence.

Vernon Brown: 27:50

If you're not happy to be here and you serving, why would I want to be here optionally? Yeah, I'm looking for a church. I got option. I don't have to be here. My mama didn't go here. I have no ties to this place, and so if you got all this invested and all this time, so much so to where you won't even consider trying anything new, like you're that invested in this place and this is as happy as you are to be here and this is not even supposed to. This is not only your childhood church, but also supposed to be connected to the most high and this is the happiest you are.

Desiree Brown: 28:19

Yeah, it's true. Like for what? What?

Vernon Brown: 28:22

So those are my two big pet peeves, Like yeah.

Desiree Brown: 28:25

Yeah.

Vernon Brown: 28:26

Like so in in the well, my big pet peeve is you, you timeliness and customer service. Like you, they don't have to be customers, don't have to be here. Customer service Customers don't have to be here. You do not cross a customer and you need to show up on time and respect their time. Those get you dismissed real quick. That gets under my skin. Under my skin and I think for the church, it's definitely just warmth and being greeted. If you're going to be in the position to, in my opinion, be the welcoming face of God to his house, you should be able to pull yourself together for the 10 to 15 seconds it takes for them to get an eye shot of you and through that door you could be whoever you want to be in between visitors, but for those moments you are the face in my opinion, the welcoming face of God's house.

Desiree Brown: 29:07

Yeah, I have no rebuttal. I think that's important.

Vernon Brown: 29:14

So those two. And I think culture is important, because I think culture is a reflection of, yes, vision, but, more pointedly, culture is a reflection of what's important to the visionary. So I can walk in my house and I have a pet peeve of dirty floors, and so if the floor is like dirty, like dusty or something or there's like a stain in the floor or something like, I will go and buy something to fix that problem because it just gets under my skin. And so for me as a visionary, seems like the wrong word, but as a visionary or leader, I see that problem. It's so, it's so important to me that I need to go fix it immediately. And I think the same thing goes for culture. If you have a culture in your church of backbiting, of gossiping, infighting, and that doesn't stick in your side as something that needs to be fixed, that says more about your leadership than anything else, because there are things that stick in people's side that bother them enough to change it.

Vernon Brown: 30:18

It's just that that doesn't crack your top five. So, to me, if love doesn't crack your top five, if the comfort or the support or taking care of the sheep don't crack your top five, if protecting those who may not be in a position or don't want to protect themselves didn't crack your top five, then you may be an amazing orator, but are you a leader and protector of those whose God has put under your responsibility?

Desiree Brown: 30:43

That's a really important thing. I think that we I don't know if you learned that from the church search or if you learned it just from like just our experience being part of churches. Maybe it's a, maybe the combination, but that is super important and I think that as we're going through this experience, you know, we we kind of debrief afterwards like you go like what do you think? You know what would you. How would you grade?

Vernon Brown: 31:15

it Like creepers and talk.

Desiree Brown: 31:17

Yeah, what was the experience like for you and that kind of thing. And I mean we'll, we'll. I think my answers are usually like, yeah, okay, so we were greeted, or we weren't greeted, or you know, a pastor said hello, or I can't believe the pastor didn't say hello, like we. We had to stand up in the church and acknowledge ourselves as visitors and the pastor didn't even come and say anything to us. Like you know, that was a peg for people of mine, but there were, like there are, several different things, but I think, foundationally, what we're actually talking about is what, in fact, is the culture there, like what is being allowed and I think it's teachable or is it teachable, or is it something that we can learn from?

Desiree Brown: 31:53

We're teachable or is it teachable, or is it something that we can learn from? We're teachable Something else? Instructive, perhaps, not just from a church perspective, but just like a life perspective of in our home, in our business, in anything that we have the authority and the vision for that. That that matters. And what you were saying actually is challenging me, because I'm like I got to do some things differently at home, because I'm I'm I am a visionary for this home and if I'm allowing some stuff that I don't like. That's on me.

Vernon Brown: 32:31

Boom yeah, and I think and I think too as as a leader it's important that you're always checking those things, because every time someone complains, or every time that annoying client or annoying person says something, it's like well, should that matter to me, Should that not matter to me? And how does that impact the environment that's here, like even even with our children, like so there is a little hint of I call your name and you ignore me. That's happening, and I don't know for certain that it's happening because it's been arguable a few times, or whether did you really hear me or not.

Desiree Brown: 33:11

I don't want to get their ear shit it's been arguable.

Vernon Brown: 33:14

It's been a little touch and go for me. But I've noticed it to the point where I'm like, okay, I'm gonna watch you and I'm gonna make sure you hear me and see if you keep walking. And if you do, it's gonna be me and you in this house like like.

Vernon Brown: 33:23

but that's one of those things that it's like no, because that turns into you ignoring other people of authority and acting like what you like, just because you don't like what just happened, that you're, you know, gonna act this kind of. But those are the little things that you have to, you know. First of all, as a parent, I try not to just respond, I try to check myself. Am I wrong? Like should this matter? Is this just my ego? Because I just want to be parent and overlord and you need to jump when you hear me, or is this actually serviceable? And then, as I as, okay, it is serviceable, it does make sense. This is something I should stand for. Then, okay, this service. What does it make sense? This is something I should stand for. Then, you know, okay, we need to go in and correct it.

Vernon Brown: 33:57

And I think it's no different than in the church, like, granted, there are a lot of people in a lot of different personalities, but I do think there's something to be said that if it comes to me, then I need to address it, and maybe not just for you and in this one-on-one thing, but for everyone to say this is not how we do things here and what can I put in place to ensure that it doesn't happen again. But that all starts with how important you think whatever issue is.

Desiree Brown: 34:22

Yeah.

Vernon Brown: 34:23

So um teach, or admiration of the, of the pastor, um culture, oh the the greeters, a greeters okay, so I have another question.

Desiree Brown: 34:42

Oh, lord, and my question was okay. So we know, we know, we okay, all of this is great, so we know what we want in the church.

Desiree Brown: 34:52

But there's a factor that we cannot ignore. There's a really big factor, and this is the God factor, because part of the thing is I don't know if we explained it here on the podcast, but we didn't leave just because we wanted to leave our last church. We were directed to go there. We were also directed to leave there, like that was very much a God thing and very clearly saying, stating this is where I want you to go, this is where I want. Now it's time for you to leave and I'll show you the next place. So in this experience has been quite interesting, because we know what we would like in a church, but the question is, does that even matter in in this thing? Because we're being directed by god to the place where he wants us to be, where he wants us to serve.

Vernon Brown: 35:44

So well, and I would say maybe a more accurate description of our experience is maybe not directed to, but I believe he will confirm when we stumble upon it. Yeah, Okay, because I wish it was like, hey, this is the one time I ain't got to visit and waste my Sundays, yeah, but yeah, I mean. So there are lists and things that I desire, but I also recognize that I could walk into a train wreck of a church and God be like this is it for you, and it's like God. Why do you send me?

Desiree Brown: 36:20

Why do you send me? Why you got to make this hard?

Vernon Brown: 36:22

We got this train wreck of a building, like why is everything a train wreck? But, um, you never know. And so I think I think it's kind of having dual vision, like we recognize what we want, like I said, we debrief, but the question always comes back to, you know, is this it Does this feel right? Cause God said his presence would be very evident? And so you know, there's that push and pull of okay, I like this place, but I'm not sure I hate this place. But, god, if you make me do it, I'll do it. And so that's been kind of interesting as well, and I just we don't know where we're going to end up. We don't keep trying and trying and trying until we get the confirmation you know similar or just confirmation period that we got when we came here. And you know, serve as we always do.

Desiree Brown: 37:10

So, as of right now, have you gotten any level of confirmation about any of the places that we have visited thus far?

Vernon Brown: 37:18

Not confirmation, that I would call confirmation. I have hunches, but a hunch is very much me and not God and I try my best not to move on hunches, so it probably comes off as abrasive. But I especially in this, through this process, like I'm very staunch and cold and tight lipped, like I'm not just chatting, like I try not to because I don't want that to sway or be like oh.

Vernon Brown: 37:44

I like this person, I like that Like I try to remove my influence on things as much as possible, just to make sure that we're being led and we're not leading.

Desiree Brown: 37:56

Yeah, that makes sense, that makes a lot of sense and I will say, like there have been some that I have liked. There have been some I have just absolutely not liked.

Vernon Brown: 38:03

Yeah.

Desiree Brown: 38:03

Yeah and I've, I've. I think that what has been clear is the absolute no's.

Vernon Brown: 38:12

Yeah.

Desiree Brown: 38:13

When it's like, yeah, this is not it Well, I mean absolute nose, yeah.

Vernon Brown: 38:19

when it's like, yeah, this is not it oh, I mean god can still say go, but he would probably have to be present and I think in the staunch nose it's like he ain't nowhere in here and and for me it's been like I don't, I don't know because, like okay.

Desiree Brown: 38:30

So there is one that is like I'm not sure, I'm just like okay, lord, I'm open, I'm listening, um, but for some of the other ones it was a like I felt zero nothing, yeah nothing, nothing, and I'm not trying to go off a feeling, but I'm like, in the spiritual sense of me, knowing how god operates with me and how god speaks with me, like I felt I did not experience god in that way and so it was like, yeah, we can just keep moving, maybe we'll visit from time to time, but we know this is not the place where he wants us to be like long term. So that that's been. That part has been. The no's have been clearer than the yeses yeah.

Vernon Brown: 39:11

Or the maybe yeah for sure, or the maybe, yeah for sure. I think my big thing is I just don't want to waste time, meaning that I don't want to Call the wrong place right and to be there for years upon years, upon years for no reason other than that's just what I wanted to do, because if it's about what I want to do, like I just sit at home, so I don't want to serve like I'm serving God and end up serving my own self and waste time.

Vernon Brown: 39:43

So I want to very much be led.

Desiree Brown: 39:46

So okay, so there is a process we're going through right, so we're not just sitting at home waiting for, like, somebody to knock on our door and be, like the Lord told me to come and tell you that this is the church, which would be so cool.

Vernon Brown: 40:00

That church was a good thing. I do have a desire.

Desiree Brown: 40:04

Kind of like your fantasy.

Vernon Brown: 40:05

Literally to be sitting down in the church and be like you.

Desiree Brown: 40:10

Like something like that.

Vernon Brown: 40:11

But anyways, go ahead. That would be so crazy. I've had it for a long time actually.

Desiree Brown: 40:17

I believe. But anyways, go ahead. I've had for a long time. Actually, I believe you because that would make it a little, a lot easier. All the guessing is gone, yeah, but then. But then they're still guessing like okay, who told you? And seriously yeah so it may not be as um.

Desiree Brown: 40:28

It still may not be as clear as you think it would feel good for a minute yeah, I get that, um, but because we are allowed maybe that's the word, I don't know, allowed or we are having this experience of going to these different places. What do you think we're supposed to be getting out of this process of visiting and seeing?

Vernon Brown: 40:53

I think it's an understand, I think it's twofold, I think one, it's really difficult, possible but difficult to recognize with knowledge what can be done with just your own experiences like so, um, I would say for the well, um, I think we've gotten really lucky with the culture, cause I think a lot of the culture that was initially created came a lot from our instructors. Just, they were just great people, um, but I'm not sure we knew what we wanted prior to them bringing what we wanted or God bringing what we needed through them, like I don't know that we, if we had 50 instructors that were willing to work and if they all came, I think we'd be like okay, you do a good job, like come on in. But I think I think our instructor like literally like set the tone for what it would be and what the environment was supposed to feel like Shout out to Nebraska Right.

Vernon Brown: 41:59

And from there everything else grew and we're like no, that's what we need. No, you're not gonna work, we need that. You're not gonna work, we need that, or we'll try you out. Yeah, my gut told me you're gonna work. Get out of here, yeah, um. And so I say all that to say that, although we did get some parts of it right, it was very much luck you know what I'm saying, I get what you're saying.

Desiree Brown: 42:20

Well, I mean when?

Vernon Brown: 42:20

I say luck, I mean it wasn't, it wasn't us, yeah, we weren't just good. We got lucky that we said yes to the right person, right Go ahead.

Desiree Brown: 42:29

And I think to me, I consider it an answer to prayer, because when we started all of this, I said God, send us the right people, send us the people who you want us to be connected with, who you want us to be a part of this Like, send us those people. And it was always interesting when we got people, we thought, oh, we thought we were like oh, this is great, remember that. Never mind, I don't know if I'm going to call it out, it was just one person and we were like this is gonna be great and then, like they ghosted us.

Desiree Brown: 43:00

I don't remember that one. I'm gonna tell you offline because I don't want to. Oh, yes, I do remember.

Vernon Brown: 43:04

Yes like yeah, they were like rock stars.

Desiree Brown: 43:07

I thought, yeah, and then like the day of the first class. Oh sorry sorry, I can't make it like what crazy.

Vernon Brown: 43:15

We advertised like everything. Yeah, it was crazy.

Desiree Brown: 43:18

It was, and yeah, but my thing was okay. I mean, it was like it was annoying for sure Cause we were like, hey, we just put all this stuff out there. But then it was like, okay, well, god, I asked you to send us the people, and so if this person is not supposed to be part of it, you've removed them for whatever reason, like things that we can't see or things we don't know, or maybe it's just not a good fit, you know, for whatever reason, and so I have trusted that to guide us in our business and and God has been right every time.

Desiree Brown: 43:52

Every time God has been right, and even the ones that we like tried to make it happen. We tried to make it fit. We knew yeah we already knew up front what it was and, and we spent some time and some money figuring out our lesson.

Vernon Brown: 44:06

But I think training that eye and that ear has been this process of what what it looks like, what it feels like, because a lot of times we can create these experiences and be like oh yeah, this is perfect. Like we don't want to. Like let's take churches, for example. Well, it used to be normal where they would make you stand up and introduce yourself. So we were like, oh, we don't want to make people uncomfortable, so you know, we won't do any of that stuff.

Vernon Brown: 44:29

Well, there's a, there was a reason why people initially tried to do it that way and there's a reason why people stopped. And so you know, not acknowledging visitors, one doesn't make them feel uncomfortable. Two, if you don't have any visitors, you don't have this awkward moment where you're asking people to stand up and nobody stands up. But when you do have visitors and it's like well, how do they feel? What is it like from their side of it? So I think we could have done the thought experiment to figure those things out. But I also think that there's no better experience than going through it and then recognizing how we receive things differently, Like if Pastor don't come and talk to me, I don't care, Like I probably wouldn't talk to anybody either, I'm trying to focus on what I got to say in a few minutes. But, like recognizing the different perspectives, I think is a thing too.

Desiree Brown: 45:13

Yeah, yeah, For me I think it is. It's giving us observation into the styles of the different different places, Like there's some things that we're going to really like and there's some things that we're not going to like, and, in God, directing us to where he wants us to go and giving us more clarity as to what we're supposed to do when we get there. I think we're supposed to bring all of that experience with us to influence and, um and I mean I guess maybe the word is maybe I can stop it at influence where we're, where we're heading.

Desiree Brown: 45:56

Um and so so it's been. It's been interesting. I won't. I don't know if I've really enjoyed it, though because I'm like I just want to be there.

Vernon Brown: 46:08

Like where are we supposed to be? I think even the process of finding a church, like I don't think many people think about how do people find a church?

Vernon Brown: 46:16

Cause, like, literally, I just bring up google maps and just click and you know, usually google has a few pictures. You go to their website, they have a few pictures. You go to their facebook page have a few pictures. And based upon that you gather some opinion on who this church is, what they believe and what they prioritize. And you know that one picture from 1927 may not be what you need out there, what you want out there. Or you know, if you haven't spent the time to attach your website to your google page, like, do I care enough, when I'm not invested in you, to go hunt you down?

Desiree Brown: 46:48

no, I just click the next one. Yeah, I mean it, that is. Yeah, that's been interesting for sure. And I mean you don't know who. First of all, I don't. I think churches generally are really bad at business and I not to say that the church is is only a business, but there is a business aspect to church, because things have to run, these things have to operate. If you're wanting to like, what do?

Vernon Brown: 47:19

what do? My pastor friends said, and I love it, but although I did tell him to change a little bit, he said church should be the best run business in the world.

Vernon Brown: 47:28

I told him to change it to best run organization, cause some people like are triggered by the word business but if we believe that the Bible has all we need for life and the church is championing the Bible, why wouldn't it be the best run organization ever and why is the norm for us to be so far away from it? If the Bible that you say that you believe answers all things, there's nothing new under the sun. So either you read it wrong or maybe you ain't reading it at all. Let's be honest.

Desiree Brown: 47:56

Yeah, oh, you might be reading it at all. Let's be honest yeah, oh, you might be reading it for different purposes and not for from that perspective, although, if you are a leader of a church, you should be looking for the leadership.

Vernon Brown: 48:05

Your number one commission is what Go make disciples. So if your organization is horrible at its primary goal and I don't say that to be.

Vernon Brown: 48:15

I don't say that to be to be rude or wrong or to be mean, but I do think that church in 2024, small churches and large churches alike, do need to have the sobering conversation of how well are we doing the tasks that we've been called to do. Like at some point we have to say that Jesus said I'll leave all y'all members to go get that one that's lost. But we do far, a far better job of taking care of the members than we do of ensuring that the people coming through the door looking for something get what they need, and so we make them feel uncomfortable. We do all these things because we want to make sure that the 99 are safe and secure and they should be. They should have some level of it.

Vernon Brown: 49:00

But the mission is not for the 99. I love y'all, but y'all already in. We need to go get them. Measure our performance based upon how many of the 99 do we have versus how many of the 99 are right, are growing and going through a transformation process. But then also, is god adding to those numbers daily? Because if, if we truly believe that god is the one who's adding, that means that god has a bunch of non-believers, that he's keeping his eye on and he's looking at all these places to send them or have all these people to make them brush elbows with.

Desiree Brown: 49:41

He's like I can't, I can't, cause you gonna snap on them quick.

Vernon Brown: 49:45

I don't trust you with that one.

Desiree Brown: 49:47

Wow.

Vernon Brown: 49:47

So. So, if you think of God controlling all things, why isn't he choosing you? Wow, and and it may not be a season for that, it may be a season for you to be looking and serving the flock that you have then God can do that. But I think far too often we rest on our laurels. As long as our 30 favorites show up, we're good when it's like. Well, god, there's a new person moving to the city every day. Why not me? And what do I need to do, or what do I need to change to allow myself to be a vessel for you to use, because he's choosing? Have you considered my, my servant, job, and I don't want to be Job, I don't want to be Job, but he's literally having. Have you considered this one, this one, this one, this one, my servant is reading the Bible and don't know how to understand it. Go, run on foot faster than a horse to go and help that person out. He chose that servant. Oh, you've been reading?

Desiree Brown: 50:43

huh, oh, you've been reading. I may have been doing a little something. You might have been doing a little something Okay.

Vernon Brown: 50:50

But why isn't he choosing me Right?

Desiree Brown: 50:52

And.

Vernon Brown: 50:52

I think it hits me personally because you know, I've told you as far as like leading people to Christ on one-on-one conversations or even just bringing it up in conversations, it probably doesn't happen as often as it should. And so what do I need to change about myself to make myself not only willing but a capable and usable vessel? Because I can think of myself as willing, but if I'm still not on the roster and I'm still riding the bench, the coach thinks you a good bench rider, but you ain't a starter yet. And so we sometimes need to have the difficult and tough conversation to say why, why not me? And the proof? If we believe the proof is in the pudding. The pudding is saying you're not fit, how do you get fit?

Desiree Brown: 51:32

Well, okay, or it's not time.

Vernon Brown: 51:34

Or it's not time. But not time means you're not fit, so what do you need to be doing to prepare yourself for your time?

Desiree Brown: 51:41

Okay, I think I can get with that. I don't know, I'm still wrestling with the wording, but I understand what you're saying.

Vernon Brown: 51:49

And this is probably why I'm not fit Because it may be a little harsher, a little bit more black and white and, like I said, I try to leave room, for it may be your time to focus on the people you have, maybe, but I also think that in the majority of cases, it's not that. It may be that something else is raggedy in our lives.

Desiree Brown: 52:12

Wow, that was really good. I love that perspective and I think if more leaders in the church had that perspective, like do you gosh think about? Like how different it would be, like how much better it would be. Not because, well, just because people would be working diligently to improve themselves, to improve their knowledge and their understanding and their relationship with god individually, but then having that translate and apply in life and how we as a church show up, we as a church perform and we as a church are actually carrying out the mission that jesus gave us but it has to go back to god because if it goes back to us too much, then we'll be like, oh, we need new cameras, or oh, we need new LED lights, or we need a LED screen behind our pre, or we need all of this stuff.

Vernon Brown: 53:06

It has to point back to God because God will show you the work that needs to happen inside, the surgery that needs to happen inside to get you there, more so than us. So becoming so reliant upon stuff and distractions, quite frankly, versus the hard work that God's trying to do in us.

Desiree Brown: 53:22

So how? This is not on my list, but as we're talking, I'm wondering if there was a pastor, a leader in the church, whether they're a pastor or some other level of leadership. What do they need to be doing? How should, how should they be structuring their life? What discipline should they be like really digging into?

Vernon Brown: 53:43

I think number one it's recognizing what your responsibility is as a pastor. Um, a lot of times the answer is I preach on Sundays and I think that's a part of it, but it might even be the smallest, most insignificant part. So how are you protecting your sheep? How are you teaching them? Training them, training them up? All of those things, I think, is a big part of being a pastor. What does your counseling look like?

Vernon Brown: 54:10

And just because you're counseling and just because people walk out the room with a smile doesn't mean it's effective. If they end up back in your office or, you know, run with a smile doesn't mean it's effective. If they end up back in your office or you know, whatever you were counseling them on ends up ending in a bad way, like maybe that wasn't the the right illustration of god's power, maybe, maybe you did everything right or maybe they just didn't listen. But what? What does that look like like? How do you? What is what? What is pastoredom like? What is pastorship and? And how do you judge yourself on it? And maybe it's more than just how many people hoop and holler on a Sunday morning. But I also think, and probably the most important thing is I think a good number of pastors are, what I want to say is so distracted by Sunday morning but you know nobody will receive that so they're so focused on Sunday mornings that they don't allow themselves time to truly stand back and look at their fruit. And so I think it's it's purposeful for them to sometimes come out of the pulpit and just sit down and see what the experience is like. Secret shopper, like send your friends to go see what the experience is like. So you know from a perspective other than you sitting up front looking for y'all ain't talking to me, y'all ain't talking to me.

Vernon Brown: 55:28

Well, maybe you ain't saying nothing. Let's be honest. Like maybe I've tried the last four things that you said and it didn't work. And now I'm discouraged, like what is it like when you flip the script and you're not looking from on high down saying you need to get this and do this?

Vernon Brown: 55:44

Well, maybe we need to present it in a different way. Maybe it needs to be small groups, maybe I need to. You know, rather than standing up tall and on um and just professing a one-way conversation, maybe I need to create more avenues for us to talk this thing out, cause if the lives aren't changing, then we're not getting it. Maybe I need to spend more time opening up the Word and saying read this. What does this mean? I don't have the answers, because I think everyone, every illustration of church, is different, but I think it starts with being able to come down off of the high horse as pastor and be able to say what's really working and not working in here. And it's difficult, but you can't see that when you're up there with a sermon in your mind that you may be mildly prepared for, but you hoping that the Holy Spirit protects you from the fact that you didn't spend the time you needed to spend.

Desiree Brown: 56:29

Yeah, I think that that I'm trying to explain it, but I think that that a couple of things. Um, one thing you said a secret shopper, but like, just like advisors, people that can truly hold you who don't agree with you on everything truly hold you accountable.

Desiree Brown: 56:51

They say, okay, that that was great, um, or that was horrible, and you were able to receive both things from that person because you trust them and you know that they're, that what they're saying is in your best interest. That's one thing that's important. And then here's the other part that I just remembered okay, servant to be a servant, to be a pastor, to be a leader in a church is not to be worshiped correct praise correct, because that role then is only reserved for god.

Desiree Brown: 57:24

Should be anyway, but yet you know, it has become the norm it has become the norm.

Desiree Brown: 57:31

Right, right, humbled himself to put on, you know, like a human form, and that is why jesus is worthy to be praised, not because, I mean, of course he's God, so there's that, but but his humility is what actually elevated him to be able to sit at the right hand of the father. And so, if we're followers of Christ, we really need to re reassess what are we doing? Are we trying to elevate ourselves? Are we trying to have the accolades and the praise and exaltation of ourselves, or are we humbling ourselves and actually truly trying to serve the people that we've been positioned to serve? And that's a reminder, I think is a reminder for me too, like I'm listening to my own words, like, okay, if you ever start feeling like up here, you need to be humble. Okay, like, just like Tim Scott said not Tim Scott, what's his?

Desiree Brown: 58:28

name Tim Ross said get down here, yeah.

Vernon Brown: 58:32

And I think it's, it's recognizing too, that most people don't start intoxicated with power or whatever, and so I think that most people are like, well, that's not who I am, so I don't have to protect against that. No, no, no. The entire structure of church I don't want to say as a setup, but the entire structure of church can create an appetite for you to be so praised. Structure of church can create an appetite for you to be so praised, like you think about the priest in the temple wearing all of these priestly garments and you know, having the ephod and everything hanging around their neck, and going in the holies of holies and all of these things.

Desiree Brown: 59:11

I've been reading.

Vernon Brown: 59:12

A little bit, but it can make you feel bigger than you are, until you get into that most holy holy is a holy and get struck down.

Desiree Brown: 59:20

Right, cause you didn't come right.

Vernon Brown: 59:22

Right, but, but and I think so it's it's about, but much of your preparation and much of the people you put around yourself as a pastor may not be for today, but are for what will happen tomorrow, cause, as we see so many pastors falling and this, that and the other, and falling into this and transgression, this, that and the third, it didn't start that way, but it's because, over time, you fell in love with the claps or you fell in love with all of these things, that you allow yourself to fall to that.

Desiree Brown: 59:52

What is it proper to man? To gain the whole world and lose his soul. And I think that we use that mostly in a sense of money. We think of like that as a like a person who has gained a lot of wealth or a lot of fame. But it doesn't always have to be that. It could be just simply in in a church setting where the applause comes or when the um praise comes, and it's not. It's not to say that the person in leadership, the pastor, shouldn't be honored like that. I think there's a place where I think the congregation should honor the person in the position to lead and guide that flock. I think there's a place for that, but it shouldn't be expected, it shouldn't be required from that individual and it shouldn't be like I guess maybe it's just like expected, Like I don't know how to explain it fully. But we need to remain. We need our hearts to remain in the right place.

Vernon Brown: 1:01:04

From my perspective, it's a fight to keep the main thing, the main thing. Yes, and when you stop fighting to keep the main thing, the main thing, it may not result in a fall, but it certainly allows you to be vulnerable to a fall. Yeah, it may not result in a fall, but it certainly allows you to be vulnerable to a fall. And so you know, I do think there are some pastors that are like over the top, like no, I don't want facing away, I don't want this, I don't want that, and it seems over the top. But maybe they know something about them that you don't know and maybe they're just trying to protect against those things. So I think you know it's a huge issue or concern, but it's a thing, especially as we see some of the people who we so revered fall, and I think it's instructive for those who are following their footsteps to say what can I do different to ensure I'm not next, or I'm not the next one in 30 years, because no one starts out hoping to fail.

Desiree Brown: 1:01:53

Right, well, that changed. That was not exactly the conversation that I thought we were going to have.

Vernon Brown: 1:01:57

I thought we were going to get through all this in one episode, but it looks like because you like to talk so much.

Desiree Brown: 1:02:02

No, I think, I think that I think we're, we're, I think we've talked about everything that I wanted to talk about and more in this, like it just. I wasn't expecting us to talk about leaders and pastors and I didn't expect that part, but I but I think we have certainly shared our church visiting experience and what that's like and, um, we're just trusting.

Vernon Brown: 1:02:26

God to show us.

Desiree Brown: 1:02:26

Yeah, as he promised he would. He said he would show us where he wants us to go, and so we're trusting God to do just that. To be very clear, we've been praying God. God, please be clear.

Vernon Brown: 1:02:35

Like, don't let us guess, because I'm slow, I miss it.

Desiree Brown: 1:02:38

Please don't let us guess, don't let us put our own selves in there, like just you be clear. And so we're trusting that and I believe, I know, I know for sure, god will do what he said he'd do. It's just a matter of how long it's going to take down that part, because I heard what I heard.

Desiree Brown: 1:02:54

I heard what I heard. I love that part. So, anyway, I think this has been great. Thank you so much for sharing, and I want to know from you all about your church experiences, whether you've kind of been at your church for a long time or if you've been through the church hunting process recently, or maybe not recently, but like, what was your experience? Like what were your things that you were like, okay, I love this about this place, or that really got on my nerves about this place. We want to know, just just because we want to be informed as we're going on this journey, about what people are looking for what do we need to add to our list?

Vernon Brown: 1:03:29

maybe we're forgetting about something. It's like slap us in the back of the neck later like what are some of those things?

Desiree Brown: 1:03:34

please don't let us get slapped, okay, Save us. Save us from ourselves, no, but seriously, we really appreciate you all for listening in. Continue to like, subscribe, comment and really we want you to comment because we've been saying we want this to be a two-way thing and right now it feels really one way. So please comment and let us know your thoughts and any insight that you can give us through this journey.

Vernon Brown: 1:04:02

Absolutely.

Desiree Brown: 1:04:03

All right. Well, we'll see you next time at Conversations of the Well. Thanks for joining. See you then