Desiree Brown: 0:00

Good morning, good afternoon and good evening. However you're watching, this is another episode of Conversations at the Well and you see we have Mr and Mrs Brown here with us and they are our guests today. Oh Lord, we agree to.

Desiree Brown: 0:17

We will be diving into the question of do the Browns have a New Church? So, grab yourself a cup of coffee, sit back, kick your feet up and come back and join us. We'll be diving into some tough questions and we'll give you all the details later. All right, come on back. Yes, indeed, we have the Browns here and they have given me permission to ask them questions about their journey to finding what was your vote?

Vernon Brown: 0:52

I voted no. What was your vote?

Desiree Brown: 0:54

Their journey to find another church. So thank you, guys. And the reason why I say thank you is because when most people find themselves in that place, they don't have anyone to talk to, they have no point of reference, because most of the time when you're in the midst of trying to decide if you want another church, it's all internal. So thank you guys for sitting here and answering questions. I appreciate it.

Vernon Brown: 1:25

That's a really good point. I never thought about that. Like, a lot of times, somebody well usually, if we're honest, somebody leaves, they get upset, they get mad, they're starting to look to another place and I think it proposes or creates a few issues, especially in small towns. Yes, but yeah, excited to see where this goes, but somewhat scared at the same time.

Desiree Brown: 1:43

And just so you know, I have composed a list of questions and the Browns have not seen the questions.

Desiree Brown: 1:51

Nope, they're all covered up they have not seen the questions, so they will be answering these questions off the cuff. And just so that we can keep it fair, I'm going to begin with one of you, so the other person will hear the question, and I want both of you to answer it. But just so that you're not the one that's always on the spot, I'm going to alternate. Ok, so you know, on one, vernon, you'll begin, on another, desiree, you will begin it feels like a trial.

Desiree Brown: 2:22

It's a debate. It's a presidential debate, oh my goodness. So, and you'll have two minutes to answer it Reclaiming my time. Reclaiming my time, y'all know I'm long-winded, so I don't know how that's going to work. Okay, well, you'll have a moment to kind of try to get it together, because the first question is for Vernon.

Eyvette Allen: 2:42

Oh, good Okay, yes.

Desiree Brown: 2:44

So, vernon, when you moved here from your let me see here, oh, hold on. Yeah, yes, when you moved here to Canton, your previous church was part of the vision At what point did you decide that it was time to move, and do you regret the fact that you moved here for that? You can't come out the gate swinging like that. Hey, we only got an hour, come on.

Vernon Brown: 3:24

Wait, okay, get to your answer this is your mama.

Eyvette Allen: 3:26

So first question was she taught you how to ask questions.

Vernon Brown: 3:29

Right, I just expected, like how's your day going, but okay, okay.

Desiree Brown: 3:33

When you moved here.

Vernon Brown: 3:34

When you moved here. Obviously your previous church was a part of the vision.

Desiree Brown: 3:39

Yes, so well, let Do you regret making that move no no.

Vernon Brown: 3:44

And why I think there's two parts to the question. I think there's the part of just regular life and regular life experience, and if you ask anyone with the pulse whether they would rather live in Atlanta or Canton, they would probably say Atlanta. But I think there's a lot more that's kind of in the pot swirling around than just that. So we could certainly have stayed in Atlanta and life would have been fine. But there was also a point or a part of the decision making that we're about to. We had children.

Vernon Brown: 4:14

Atlanta is an interesting place to raise kids, there's like a lot of other things. So if you're just taking it at face value, you would have much preferred to stay in Atlanta. But would you prefer to stay in Atlanta while outside of God's will? I think that was the key question, or the key point, and so for us, I would rather live in a small town within God's will than a huge town that seemingly has everything and the uncertainty of. I know I ain't supposed to be here, but I'm just being disobedient, jonah. So no, I don't regret it at all, even in the midst of some of the most difficult times, like losing my job, like I think I would have the perspective of you know, if I was in Atlanta I would.

Vernon Brown: 4:52

It would be easier for me to find another job but I still know I'm supposed to be here and, whether it looks like it or not, once I get done crying and screaming and being upset, you get back to the place that I know I'm supposed to be here. So, god, it's your fault, fix it, okay. Okay, that's after all of the all of the crying and screaming and being upset. Okay, did I answer your first question?

Desiree Brown: 5:14

um, that did, that did. And Desiree, do I regret moving? Do you regret moving here? No, and it's.

Eyvette Allen: 5:19

It's kind of strange, right, because Atlanta is my hometown. Yeah, yeah, mom, and dad are there.

Desiree Brown: 5:23

Mom and dad are there.

Eyvette Allen: 5:24

Mom and dad are there, my extended family Well, more of my extended family is there and it's home. But moving here was absolutely a God thing, and so I'm fixing this earring because it just fell out my ear, but it was absolutely a God thing and so I don't ever regret following after what God said. I do think that I do think that there's a lot of beautiful things here. I've adjusted quite well. Um, I actually really like the slower pace of things. I like, um, the school that we have our kids in now. Um, like it. Just it's a. It's a really good fit for this time in our life.

Desiree Brown: 6:07

Okay.

Eyvette Allen: 6:07

And so no, I just I don't regret it. Plus, we have the well, I mean, there's just been so many things that have come out of the move and our obedience to what God was doing, and so I don't regret it at all. And I know there was another part to the question. You want me to answer that part or do you want him to answer that part first? No, you can answer, Go girl. The other part was about like, do it was about leaving the church? That was part of the vision initially. Do we do? I regret?

Eyvette Allen: 6:38

doing that Again, no, because I think that it is still all of it was part of God's big plan, like there was very clear direction that we were to move to here. Part of it was to help to grow the church and I think we I think we fulfilled that. I think we did what we were supposed to do there and when God said, ok, it's time for you to go, we left, and it wasn't a second before. If God said, no, you're supposed for you to go, we left, and it wasn't a second before. Um, if God said, no, you're supposed to still be here in the, at the church, we would still be there, and so I left with no regrets.

Eyvette Allen: 7:12

I think that we did what we were supposed to do. I think we poured into the ministry um, a lot, uh, gave of our time, our talent, our finances, like all of the things. And so I think, in hindsight and in reflection, my thing is I was, I just wanted to, I just wanted God to be like, well done, like you did what I asked you to do, and I do think that we completed that task. So I don't have any regrets leaving, okay.

Vernon Brown: 7:41

Well, I think it goes back to the way I answered the first question.

Vernon Brown: 7:43

I think there's how you feel personally and then how you feel as a servant of God.

Vernon Brown: 7:49

I think from the personal perspective, I think there's some regret that like for who I am, for what was invested in the time that you spend to try to create something.

Vernon Brown: 8:01

You want to see it through and you want to see it grow and you want to see the people who you spent time with, like the children and all of those you want to see like them grow and that that continue. And so from that perspective, it's like man, like we're just getting getting a good thing going and like seeing some growth and they were. They were growing, like spiritually, and how they presented themselves and how they spoke, and it was just like you could see tangible benefits from what was happening. So I think from that perspective, like from a heart perspective, you're like, ah, but from an obedience perspective, no, no different than you know, naturally you don't want to move from Atlanta to Canton, but you're being obedient. I think it goes the other way around too. If God says come, you come, whether you want to or not. If God says go, you go, whether you want to or not.

Eyvette Allen: 8:47

Can I expand on that? Yes, so. So with that, do you? I have my thoughts and. I don't. I kind of want to say my thoughts, but I have to ask your thoughts on this one I should ask your thoughts on this one. Do you think your job was complete there? Do you think you did your job as you were supposed to?

Vernon Brown: 9:10

So that's a hard question, because I think there is a job and then there is a vision, and so to me, a job is a task. I ask you to do this, I ask you to do this, did you do this, did you do this? Well, and I think through that there are moments of God being pleased and God saying, yes, you did that, great, great, great, great great. But then I also think there's the what did we learn at home? We've been married the perfect will of God, like what God originally had in mind when he pulled this together.

Vernon Brown: 9:43

And I think, from the perspective of what was created, built and sustained. I don't think what the completed vision at our departure was the picture that he had originally in his mind, and whether that's the reason of the change or not, who knows but I think those two are different. So I think, with everything that we were asked to do, we did that with excellence, but I think those two are different. So I think, with everything that we were asked to do, we did that with excellence, but I think what God envisioned it being when he sent us here.

Eyvette Allen: 10:13

I think that was different. Does that make sense? It does, yeah, and I can agree with that. I think I also come from the standpoint of I know what we did. I know, I know what you did last summer, I know the context in which things were happening and so for me, I just cause I mean I really did.

Eyvette Allen: 10:33

I did have a hard time initially when God said when, when it was finally like clear, god says it's, I've released you, it's time for you to go, and I was like kind of there were were a lot. It was a bittersweet thing, but when that happened I guess I just had to reckon like, okay, the things that were planted, the seeds that were planted, whether they continue as they were or they change, the seeds were there. And so I do think that and I and I'm trusting that God will continue to do his work, because I feel like our job was simply to like get it started and I trust that those kids are taken care of, trust that the other ministries that we were part of are taken care of. But it was really out of our hands and God was like listen, it's mine anyway, it was never yours, so let me handle this that's kind of how I can, and before we get back to, I know she's like I'm the interviewer here I think that's.

Vernon Brown: 11:26

I think that's one thing that we get wrong as ministers, servers, servant leaders in the church. We make it ours and it's like I have to do this, or I have to support this, or I have to take care of this or no one will.

Vernon Brown: 11:38

But that's, that's god's wife yeah, yeah, just jesus bride, and so we forsake our own responsibilities to say we're taking care of something that God told us to take care of when it's like, no, that's God's responsibility. Just like he called you, he'll call somebody else. Just like he moves your heart, he'll move someone else's heart. And I think, as servant leaders and people who just volunteer in the church, you have to make sure you keep the main thing, the main thing which is. You are serving at the pleasure of God.

Desiree Brown: 12:07

I heard keeping the main thing, the main. Thing. Oh yeah, so that's kind of ironic.

Vernon Brown: 12:12

We're back in submission.

Desiree Brown: 12:14

So, desiree, the next question is for you. You referenced bittersweet, so the question that I have for you is what were some of the emotions tied to asking the question? Is it time to leave the church? And give us a little bit more than bittersweet.

Eyvette Allen: 12:36

Oh my God it was bittersweet.

Desiree Brown: 12:38

No, no, bittersweet is just so generic.

Eyvette Allen: 12:40

There was a lot there were a lot of emotions and I'll be honest with you, I think at that time there was a lot of frustration. To be honest with you, there was a lot. There were a lot of emotions and, I'll be honest with you, I think at that time there was a lot of frustration. To be honest with you, there was a lot of stuff going on that it was confusing. It felt some ways it felt chaotic. It felt it felt, yeah, confusing, chaotic, frustrating, like there were a lot of. It was a lot of that.

Eyvette Allen: 13:00

And I'm like god, what is going on? What? What? Because this is not making sense to me. And I know what we've done, I know what you told us to do, but a lot of this is just I don't get it and I I'm not like what are you doing here? Help me, just give me a little something, or at least tell me what my role should be here. And it was kind of out of those emotions where I began to pray, like I'm not quite sure what you still have us here for. Do you still want us here? Do you want us to go? If you want us to stay, we will, absolutely we will ride through whatever it is that you ask us to ride through, but if you're telling us to go, I also need you to know. Tell us like, where, where are we going? And oh, I also need you to tell us where we're going.

Eyvette Allen: 13:46

And I had been praying about this for actually some months. It was a lot, so much going on and I was sad that we were in that place. I felt just because I cared so deeply for the people, I cared deeply for the church, I cared deeply for the ministry, I cared deeply for the pastor. It just I was like it just doesn't seem like it should be going this way and the relationships that have been built here are being impacted by some of these things that are happening and I was really sad about that. Some of these things that are happening and I was really sad about that. Yeah, so emotions mostly there weren't a lot of positive emotions at that time.

Desiree Brown: 14:31

And what does that mean Desiree? What does that mean, desiree?

Eyvette Allen: 14:35

It wasn't joy, it wasn't like excitement or happiness. It was just like what is going on? Just confusion and frustration was in in feeling, feeling crazy, I felt crazy, I felt really crazy let me ask you this because I want to jump in.

Eyvette Allen: 14:53

Yeah, because as you're talking, I I see water in your eyes yeah, it still bothers me because I guess, to his point, what he was talking about perfect will. I think that we got outside of that, not we, I think. How things were happening, things that decisions that were being made from a number of different ways. I think that was getting outside of the perfect will and there was so much more that we anticipated doing. There was so much more that we anticipated doing. There was so much more that we wanted to do. In that place we were really. The first thought was you know, if we left, what would happen to the kids, like what you know, they've been growing, they've been doing great. What is going to happen to the children? Um, I had other other concerns for the women, but I'm like, well, they're grown-ups, they'll be all right to figure it out.

Eyvette Allen: 15:49

But I was really, I was really concerned about that, and so it wasn't like we just wanted to leave. It wasn't that we didn't want to do more. It wasn't that we wanted we didn't want to do more. It wasn't that we wanted, we didn't want things to work out. It's just there was there was just a lot that we were contending with and it was getting, I think, tougher to figure out what our role was at the place and where. Usually you're.

Eyvette Allen: 16:23

It kind of felt like I feel like I'm talking a lot, but it kind of felt like we were at this, this crossroads, and going straight was no longer an option. It was either you turn left or you turn right, and at that point we were really, I was really I think both of us were really just seeking God, like okay, ok, so what's, what direction are we going here? And that's what really led to the prayer. So, as far as like the emotions and the watering eyes, like I loved the people, I love the church, I loved being there, but it was becoming increasingly difficult to serve and it was becoming increasingly difficult to understand what role we were to play in the middle of all of the stuff that was going on. So it still hurts, um, I guess.

Eyvette Allen: 17:20

Sometimes I guess, if I think about it long enough, but I try not to think about it too much because I also think part of my instruction was to reflect on the lessons. What did you learn from the situation? What did you gain from the situation? What did you what? What seeds were planted, to think about those things and to be able to forgive and also to leave with joy going forward.

Desiree Brown: 17:47

So any good think on these things?

Eyvette Allen: 17:48

Yes, so, um. So yes, there were some painful aspects, but I think, generally speaking, we did. It was what it was supposed to be. That sounds weird because I said we were outside of perfect will, but I guess, when we're thinking of all things yes, if we're thinking of all things work together for the good of those who love the Lord and are called according to his purpose there's still good that came out of the situation. So, yeah, those were, those were the motions. That's what got me to the prayer. And when God said you're released, it wasn't like instant relief. It was more like wait, are you sure? Like I started questioning more like are you sure this is it Like, this, is it You're just saying we're done? And I actually needed confirmation and it came again. I said I've released you and I said, Okay, well, I guess, I guess this is what we're doing now. So, yeah, there were a lot of, there were a lot of emotions. I'm curious what he has.

Desiree Brown: 18:58

Well, let me get to the emotional one. Vernon the same question. What were some of your emotions that were tied to asking the question is it time to leave?

Vernon Brown: 19:08

well, I think we I think I never asked her, but I think we were asking the question at two different times. Okay, so I think I was asking the question six to eight months before her. Well, because, because so I'm, I'm a not to say she's not, but I'm a very thoughtful person and I'm a very okay, this plus that, plus that, that ain't good, like how do we? And so, as I started thinking through some of the situations and specifically, like I care about myself to a certain degree, but when you, when it, when it impacts my wife, is different, right, and so, as I saw things happening that impacted her, that that that gets under my skin, that gets under my skin. And I get a little bit different when you start, like when it starts impacting my wife and my kids. So that led to me kind of like asking and starting to pray about the question, like ahead of time, like, ok, I see these things happening, this conversation, if it leads here, god, you know, that ain't going to be good. So we that that's not, that's not good.

Vernon Brown: 20:20

So how are we going to do this and where does this have to go? And I don't see relief coming in this instance and I'm not going to keep putting her in this situation. She, your daughter. We're going to be obedient, but she's my wife too, and you've charged me with protecting her, and so I think that led to me asking questions a lot more, a lot sooner than she did, cause it wasn't about what at that that time. It wasn't about what was happening, it was about A plus B equals C, and C is not good. So we hadn't gotten to A plus B yet. A plus B came later. But just me kind of seeing that that's, that's going to be oil and water. How do we, how do we manage through that?

Desiree Brown: 20:58

Well, I think the most interesting part of you guys answering this question when Desiree answered, I saw just the hurt of having to leave her loved one. When you answered, I saw y'all better get it right. It's not, you're not gonna.

Vernon Brown: 21:18

What we're not gonna do is hurt her we come from two different sides, two different sides of the court.

Desiree Brown: 21:24

Yeah, okay, well, bless your heart, okay, because it just looks so different, I mean especially as you continue to talk very would you see the water it? Was. It was no sensitivity. It started to get to like, like like that man that man, yeah, I it. It was going to anger, where she was more sentimental and loving and yours was on a different level. Okay, well, I guess.

Vernon Brown: 21:51

And I don't think it's just who we are differently Like. For me, like I said, if it was just me, it's fine, like it's the same. If this is the worst life get fine. Cool, like I could well. I shouldn't say that, but I've dealt with different stuff before. Fine, cool, like I could well. I shouldn't say that, but I've dealt with different stuff before.

Desiree Brown: 22:11

But it's like when it when it gets to that point, and that's when I have an issue. Amen, thank you, jesus. Okay, so Vernon and I actually think you've already answered this question, but we're going to go in again just so that we can get a little clarity for the audience and the question is do you feel as though your time there was a waste?

Vernon Brown: 22:29

Oh Wait, Do I feel like it was a waste?

Desiree Brown: 22:34

Like you, wasted time.

Vernon Brown: 22:36

Two sides of the coin.

Desiree Brown: 22:37

Okay, give me both sides.

Vernon Brown: 22:38

I think, in obedience, if you find yourself making decisions based upon God's obedience, is never a waste. You may not see it, you may not see how this affected that, you may not be able to quantify it, but if you are living life trying to be obedient and succeeding and being obedient to God, it's never a waste. Now, natural eyes and I've said this before on previous podcasts like I'm call it arrogant, call it confident, whatever you want to call it, but I produce fruit and I produce fruit. Well, let me qualify I produce fruit where when I'm fully invested, and I produce fruit when I invest the time, effort and everything necessary. And I did that there and to me, based upon my experience, the fruit didn't. That's I'm. I know what fruit looks like for me and it didn't. The fruit wasn't fruit in the way I expected it to fruit. Does that make sense?

Desiree Brown: 23:39

It wasn't as fruity as the fruit should have been as fruity as the fruit cake should have been OK, ok, ok, yeah, I understand.

Vernon Brown: 23:42

So with that it's like that's, that's weird, does that make sense? It wasn't as fruity as the fruit should have been.

Desiree Brown: 23:44

It wasn't as fruity as the fruit cake should have been. Okay, okay, okay.

Vernon Brown: 23:46

Yeah, I understand, and so with that it's like that's weird, because A plus B always equals C. Okay, and it didn't in that instance. And so from that perspective, it led me to a lot of like self-searching, like okay, what went wrong here? Because this is abnormal. Every other place in my life, every other situation, has been fruity, but this one has not. And I think the first thing established or tenured people would say is that well, just ministry is different. You just need to have a better experience of ministry. And my response to that would be no, perhaps you just need to have a better experience of God, because God always shows up, god always produces fruit, and if he's not producing fruit in your life, in your ministry, when he says he added to their number daily, is God lying or is you?

Desiree Brown: 24:36

Okay, so just one thing before we continue. Can we get another person?

Vernon Brown: 24:42

No, but that's my expectation, and it's not to say that it's butts in the chairs, because sometimes we lean a little bit more into that, and so I believe fruit can be the development of faith within someone's heart.

Vernon Brown: 24:53

I believe, fruit can be the development of a minister in and of himself in his own walk. There could be nobody in the seats. But God is working on you and your gift to get you to be prepared in the seats. But God is working on you and your gift to get you to be prepared. But I think in instances where by no and I use this because I'm a business by no metric, by no measurable way, can the master come back and say how many talents do you have after I gave you talents? If there's no way in which the master can quantify, what's he going to do? Take it from you and give it to somebody else.

Vernon Brown: 25:25

But I think too often we get comfortable and just, you gave me five, here's three. But God is very clear that you produce fruit and even if you don't, you get cut off, you get pruned right. But if you're attached to the vine, you should. So, to go back to your answer, like I think, in being obedient to God, yeah, but in my just expectation of when God has placed me, me being invested in it and me having faith, prayers, everything else invested in it, it it did not live up to what I would expect. What I would expect. It did not live up to what I would expect. What?

Desiree Brown: 26:04

I would expect. So you're saying that it was wasted Because we're on the other side of the coin now.

Vernon Brown: 26:14

Yeah, well, I think it's important to show that perspective that you can be disappointed, it can miss your expectations, but maturity still tells you that it wasn't wasted because I still grew. So I guess that's a three-sided coin. There's there's the obedience part, there's what I expected from a fruit perspective, but then there's also the work that was done within me. I think my gifts were, were cultivated. I think um like teaching Sunday school and um children's church and on the radio three times a week, like ain't no better training to hear from God than doing that consistently for years.

Desiree Brown: 26:52

Actually speaking on the what for Sunday on Sunday and then when, in the midst of absence, you kind of stepped in.

Vernon Brown: 27:00

So so like through all of that. It's like cultivation of gifts and understanding what it looks like to be inside of a church, understanding all the nuances, dealing with the people, dealing with the leadership, understanding vision, how you can't just say we go and do this and everybody gets behind like understanding. All of those things definitely added value. So it wasn't wasted. But there was fruit, but fruit in unexpected places.

Desiree Brown: 27:23

Not as much fruit as you would like. Okay, all right. And Desiree, was it wasted for you?

Eyvette Allen: 27:29

No.

Desiree Brown: 27:30

Okay, why.

Eyvette Allen: 27:31

For the reason. The end of his answer.

Vernon Brown: 27:36

The beginning was crap.

Eyvette Allen: 27:38

Well, I just, I just I just feel differently because if I put, if I'm like, if I have to answer the question, just yes or no, it's not, it was not wasted because gifts were we I mean, yeah, definitely cultivated. We were, we were just kind of allowed to. I don't think it would have happened in any other space. I don't think it would have happened in any other space. I think that, like, if we, we were in a space, it was a family church, so there were different dynamics that were happening there. And if we had been in another type of church that wasn't a family church, there would have been a, you know, more stair stepping, more ladder climbing. But we were fast tracked and I don't think that it was wasted because of that. We had to cultivate our gifts.

Eyvette Allen: 28:28

I had I'll speak for myself prayer every week, leading the women's group, developing curricula, developing a budget, managing a budget for the whole church. You know, church, um, you know there were some, I guess, pastoral things happening where people would come and share some of the things that they were going through and having to go to God and be like, oh, lord, I don't know. Okay, don't, let me answer it myself. Let me answer how you want me to answer. So, like those kind of things, study, you know, being in the Bible, because you gotta you can't just get up there and teach, you gotta learn before you can teach, and so there were a lot of opportunities that we had there that I think it wasn't wasted. I think it was a training ground and you know, like, yeah, like it was a sink or swim situation. It was like you're out here, let's go, and so we had to, we had to sink or swim, and we aren't, we aren't sinkers. So we were swimming and sometimes we were doggy paddling and sometimes it felt like we were maybe about to drown, but we, we were still, we were still going, and I mean the children, I like just there were so many things and also highlighted some areas that we still need to develop too.

Eyvette Allen: 29:44

So, you know, I'm, I'm a person, I'm, I like to go off the fly. That's kind of my thing. But I realize, like in you can't do that in every situation, because if you're trying to bring people along with you, there needs to be more of a plan, and so you have to do some more forward thinking and you have to think about how others can be involved and all of that stuff. So I all think I think it was all for something. I don't think it was all for nothing. Did it result in everything that we wanted it to result in? No, but but if I'm looking, guess it was a very good training in like just just get in there and do it kind of situation. So I think it was good. I think it was. I'm not wasted.

Desiree Brown: 30:39

The next question. So the first week after your last Sunday, on that Friday morning when you woke up and you didn't have the prayer call, when you didn't have to prepare a lesson for the children on Sunday, when you didn't have to study for Sunday school that week, after you knew everything was final. That was it. How did you feel in that space? Is that me or her? That goes to Desiree first and then to Vernon.

Eyvette Allen: 31:18

Oh, okay, how did it feel? I'm trying to think back no longer with the women no longer yeah yeah With the ministries.

Eyvette Allen: 31:26

Yeah, I think, I think good, I think it was. I think at that point it was kind of relief because everything else was building up. I think it was, I think at that point it was kind of relief because everything else was building up. When God initially said you're released, it was like okay, well, we can't just like just leave right now. That just doesn't seem appropriate. We need to like kind of tie up some loose ends and even in that process thought that would happen in a different way. You didn't just leave, you didn't just walk out, we didn't just leave. It wasn't the moment God said you're releasing, we didn't just leave, we got we. How did you exit? That's a good question. Yeah, so that we got that answer. Probably what October? No, october, I think it was.

Eyvette Allen: 32:06

And so you know, in discussion it was like okay, so what do we do? And my thing was like God does things decently and in order. We cannot just leave, we can. That would be. That would. That would be disruptive, that would be not OK, for I don't think anybody involved. And if we truly care which which we did if we truly care about the things in this church and these people that we have been in community with. We can't just disappear. That would not be OK. And so what we decided is that we would give our, we would give notice and, similar to how you do in a job, we would give. We actually gave what? Three weeks. It was like it was over a month, it was about a month and a half maybe OK.

Eyvette Allen: 32:51

Maybe two. It was a lot, it was quite a bit of notice. I'll say that that we will be leaving at the end of the year, december 31st will be our last day, and so, um, that was to try to give time to for transition, for people to fill in, to make known what we had been working on, where we were in the process of doing those things before we would leave. But that part like that takes work and that takes effort. So it wasn't just all right, okay, we're gone. And but after it was done, it was kind of like okay, we are done, done, like it felt like it was right. If we had just left abruptly, it would not have felt right, if we had just left abruptly, it would not have felt right. But it also felt odd because we were now in this, in this in-between space, and I would say I wanted to say uncovered, but that's never been the case.

Eyvette Allen: 33:44

God always covers us, but we didn't have a place, we didn't have a home, and so it was all right. Well, I guess we start searching for our new home, and that's when we started visiting the new churches. So there has not been a Sunday that we have not been in. Well, no, there was one Sunday we didn't go to church. We had friends in town and we didn't know where, we didn't have a church, so we didn't want nowhere to take them. So that was the only Sunday that we didn't go, day that we didn't go. So we've been, we've still been, trying to find a place, and with the guidance that God told us that when we found a place, like we would know, we would know when we found a place. So that was my experience.

Desiree Brown: 34:30

Vernon that first week after you didn't have to prepare for Sunday school, you didn't have to prepare a message, you didn't have to. You know lead service, you just was. Well, I hope you still read your Bible, but you didn't. Wow, I was through through. Okay, wow.

Vernon Brown: 34:51

And I think, I think that was a really good point, that she brought up like preparing to leave was more work than staying why do you say that?

Desiree Brown: 34:57

what do you because?

Vernon Brown: 34:58

I'm a, I'm a super thoughtful. Not thoughtful as in, like emotional, but thoughtful as in what do I need? Get in place to get in place, and so you know, we had pulled together like a budget. These are some ideas that you need to do, some things you should be looking out for in the future. Um, like, hey, we, we recommend you find replacements for these different roles, like it was cause, that's what I would want to have. Okay, like I'm going to have my own plan and I may not use your stuff, but if you're going to leave, then, like I need your help.

Desiree Brown: 35:28

Like, help me.

Vernon Brown: 35:29

It's I, I. I tried to think through what I would want in that instance, because I mean, as as a pastor, people come and people go and you're still there, like you're still holding your arms up and holding down the fort. So I want to make sure I provided just information and details and like, okay, these, these are, this is the budget, this is this, this is that you need to keep out. Look out for these. You probably need to cut these things because we were good before you know. Cut those things, like all of those different recommendations. How was that received? It's not, it's not my, it's not. I don't think it's my responsibility, like I think it's my responsibility to create it and, much like I just said, like I would want it. I may never use it, may never touch it, may never look at it, but I appreciate it being done, and so in that instance, it was my job to ensure that I can look at God and say I did everything I could to make sure that things went on.

Desiree Brown: 36:21

But did that answer the question? How was it received?

Vernon Brown: 36:24

Received like anything else, like you, take it and you know, keep moving. Okay, did you?

Desiree Brown: 36:29

review it and you did all of that, or did you just help?

Vernon Brown: 36:34

had. I think we had. Uh, I would send it and and honestly it kind of if I think about it, like over the two years that that were there um kind of set up a cadence of at the end of each year I'll provide just just my thoughts and I would say, hey, take them, leave them. This is just what I think okay, from an outsider looking in, because sometimes from the pulpit, from a senior pastor's, you see things a little differently than everyone else. So these are just my thoughts, and so I come up with just a cadence of sending it at the end of the year. So this was no different. I email it. I think I think we had two meetings or three, three meetings. The first two were really around hey, are you sure this is what you want to do? Um, some new information that came up and you know. So we okay. Well, let's go back to God and make sure God confirmed it again Yep, we're, we're good. Um, not, I came off wrong, but um, I heard what.

Desiree Brown: 37:30

I heard.

Vernon Brown: 37:31

Um, but yeah, I mean as far as a meeting, to go over the details of it. I mean for me, like I thought it to be a bigger deal than it was probably taken. But you know that happens a lot of times when leaders have a plan Like I don't know what the leader knows and so he may already have plans so cool. So I thought it would be a little bit bigger of a deal more meetings, more questions, more stuff like that. But I mean I'm sure all of that stuff was already taken care of. So to answer your question, did I answer your question?

Desiree Brown: 38:00

You did answer my question. You did after I went back in. Okay, and so the next question. We're going to leave with Vernon and the question is how do you feel about your previous pastor? What do you mean? Well, well, I think it's self-explanatory how do you feel about him?

Vernon Brown: 38:18

I mean, like right now yes, how do you? Feel I mean, why are we qualifying? How do you? I'm trying to understand what you get.

Desiree Brown: 38:25

No, I'm not getting anywhere, I'm just asking because here's the thing when people, when people leave a church Desiree had stated in the beginning, it is normally under adverse type of situations. So my question is with you guys, it seemed like you guys, you know, got the okay from God, you went ahead and moved on it. So my question is everything wasn't quite obviously the way you felt it should be. So my question is at this point, how do you felt they should be? So my question is at this point how do you feel about your previous pastor?

Vernon Brown: 38:59

I'll give you three different time points. So I think, in the midst of preparing to leave, I think there was disappointment in that. I think it felt like, from the planning perspective, from all the work that was done, like I don't want to say it was dismissed, but I don't think that the topic of leaving was really taken seriously until the very end, and so it was. To me it was kind of like man, that's a waste, like we have 90, some days to make sure that this is smooth, effortless, like purposeful, and I feel like it was almost squandered. And so from that perspective, it's like disappointed, like man, this, this should have. Just like like God gave us the OK, god gave us time to make sure that we, like it didn't have to be a hard switch like that.

Vernon Brown: 40:01

It could have been a slow roll. Yeah, people knew conversations about it, everybody's on the same page, but it just didn't. It seemed like, at the like, a very last minute rush thing, although it wasn't. And so I think from that perspective, in the eyes of both the people, oh, go ahead and where was the?

Desiree Brown: 40:19

where was the breakdown? I don't know oh, you were there yeah, I mean.

Vernon Brown: 40:25

I mean, I think that I think in what I desire okay, yeah, speak from that perspective in a perfect world, it would have been like, hey, we're leaving, okay, um, well, let's, let's talk about what you're doing and talk about how we prepare the next person to do it, and I think that was said. But then it's like, okay, I'm kind of waiting. What do you want to do? Like, how do we like, what do you want to happen next? And us to have meetings and conversations. And, you know, look out over the congregation and say this person is probably best, this person is person, is probably most equipped. Let's have them come in, let's have them teach, um, let's have them get a sense of what we're doing so that they can understand what we do and then put their own spin on it and change it. So it's, if they want to change things, cool, it's just, it's your shop, like. But there's a smoother transition for people not here today, gone tomorrow.

Desiree Brown: 41:10

So I think for for, for one from so I think for, for, for one from one perspective. I think it was our last Sunday that we told the kids Wait a minute.

Vernon Brown: 41:20

Your last Sunday there Sunday we were there, you didn't announce it prior. Our last Sunday is when we told the kids why I think, from a from a servant leader perspective, it's important that you follow the leadership of your leaders, and so I did not feel comfortable sharing that, which I thought to be a pretty big deal, without having like firm like is this okay? And so we got that okay after asking for it again for that last Sunday there, and so like stuff like that Does that make sense?

Desiree Brown: 42:00

It don't make sense, but I understand what you're saying. Oh wow.

Vernon Brown: 42:03

Yeah, okay, all right. And, like I said, I think part of it too is like flipping the script. I think there are situations where people leave where they have a bigger view of what they do and how they impact things than what truly is happening, and so what I mean by that is, I think I think when some people leave the church, they want some big shindig to happen because they feel like they've been doing all of these things. And I recognize that, and I recognize that that could be like, that could be how I see myself in. My departure could not have meant anything. It could have just been okay, we, you're here today, we got a new person tomorrow, and so that's why I try to speak very tactfully, because I don't want to think of myself more highly than I ought to.

Vernon Brown: 42:48

Yeah so but just if you're asking my opinion, I would. I thought that we did enough to where it's like, oh crap, we need to make sure we have some coverage on these different things, whether it's Sunday school, you know, bible study, children's church, preaching every fourth Sunday, marriage ministry, finance committee, like all of that stuff. I would think it need to be a bit more planned. But, like I said, I don't want to be so arrogant to think that I mean, maybe it wasn't necessary and I think that's a choice every leader has to make and that choice was made.

Desiree Brown: 43:21

And so coming outside of the servant aspect and just being a disciple, I think, is the terminology they use versus a member, but just being a disciple, how was your transition from the perspective of being a disciple under the leadership? Say the last part again how was your departure?

Vernon Brown: 43:51

Oh well, I don't think it was unique to anyone's experience, like, I think, the average person, when they leave a church, you never hear from the person, you never hear from the pastor again, and I don't I don't necessarily think that's right, but I think that's a lot of people's existence, um, or a lot of people's truth, and it was no different with. Yeah, I don't think it was no different, no different with us. I think I don't think it was no different with us. Really, I think she's been reached out to, but, yeah, from my perspective, yeah, but that's where you received your ordination.

Vernon Brown: 44:26

That's not true. I did get reached out to because the screens wouldn't work, so I helped with that to get that up and running. The audio-vis visual system is, you know, complicated so I helped fix some of those things.

Desiree Brown: 44:47

Okay, desiree. Yes, answer the question. I'm just, I'm through. Answer the question baby girl.

Vernon Brown: 45:03

So how do you feel about?

Desiree Brown: 45:04

your previous pastor gosh. Um, before that, okay, I said I had three. That was like, yeah, then I was thinking about that, but I wasn't gonna go back then, okay.

Vernon Brown: 45:08

Um, at the moment of departure, it was just. I think it was a relief like yeah, just wow, that's sad well, I don't know that it's sad, but I think I think anytime the house of God is sad, well, I think it was a relief, like yeah just well, I don't know that it's sad, but I think, I think anytime the house of God is sad.

Vernon Brown: 45:19

Well, I think anytime that somebody is like serving, and the responsibility, the heaviness of serving, um whether it's making sure that I'm prepared for Sunday school and then prepared for that random question that comes out of left field from an eight year old you have to think about those things, because if you welcome questions, the question will come and we had amazing kids.

Vernon Brown: 45:40

Yeah, and they were engaged and would ask the difficult questions and I had to figure out not only how to answer it biblically, but how to answer it biblically in a way that you would understand. That's not going to have you having to ask your parents hard questions later that they may not be prepared for. So I think there was a relief at that moment. And then, at this point, it's just, um, at this point it's just. I think there's no other adjective than just like, like nothingness, like it's, it's, I don't, it's, it's, it's, it's no feelings whatsoever. Like it's, it's, I don't, it's, it's, it's, it's no feelings whatsoever. Um, and I don't know if that's a coping mechanism or what, but it's just, it was what it was. And like. I think the reason for that is, if I lean into how I feel about it and the disappointment that it didn't, in my opinion, reach the perfect will, or the disappointment of I haven't heard from anyone for disappointment of any of those things I think that would lead to anger.

Vernon Brown: 46:40

That's not a good place to be. And it's a difficult place to climb back from Absolutely. So, from my perspective, it's just whatever. Yeah, I'm sorry to cut you off.

Eyvette Allen: 46:49

Go, deseret, I'm glad you kept talking, because I didn't want to. How do I feel? Yeah, how do you feel I have? I think I have tried to not feel honestly. I've tried to like okay, move on you know why are you trying not to feel? Because it hurts okay, okay and now I'm about to cry and I don't want to cry. Okay, it is painful because beyond church, this is family.

Desiree Brown: 47:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it hurts, it hurts that it became. Bring me one too.

Eyvette Allen: 47:49

Thank you.

Desiree Brown: 47:55

It hurts that it became Like I don't even feel that part anymore.

Eyvette Allen: 48:12

Yeah, and so mostly sad, mostly disappointed.

Desiree Brown: 48:17

I wish things were different. So let me ask this so, even in the space of being released by God, this emotion is still there. Yeah, um I think.

Eyvette Allen: 48:45

I think it was. I think it's. Yes, I don't think that god only puts us in situations that make us feel good.

Desiree Brown: 48:55

There is there, there's life, that happens.

Eyvette Allen: 48:58

There's um challenges that happen and all of those things, and it doesn't. It doesn't always feel good and in this particular case, this one doesn't feel good and it's been um disappointing that, um he, he reached out to me one time um but there have.

Eyvette Allen: 49:24

I don't. I'm not quite sure how he feels about me or about us. Um, I don't know if he took the law the law of us leaving as personal, like was it a personal thing? Or was this a spiritual thing? Maybe a little bit of both? I don't know how he feels about things, but it has been. Um, I haven't. I think I've only seen him once since all of this happened and it's been three months or so. So it's just that part hurts. How do I feel about him? I still love him very much, care about him, pray for him. Matter of fact, this morning in prayer, god was giving me a list of people to pray for and he was on that list. So I pray for him and I pray that things are going well at the church, because I want that for the place that we spent so much time and we put so much effort into, and not just because of that, but just I mean, it's a place of it's a place of it's a house of God. Like you don't want things to just fail.

Desiree Brown: 50:45

So jeez that I wasn't ready for the emotions of that question, but that's how I feel okay, okay, and and and I think it is important here, um, and of course, vernon's missing because somebody has to pay some bills, so he's on a work call, but I think that, um, it's important that we state you guys have been at that church for two years. In the midst of the two years, you guys have never come in late. You've always been on post, you've always been, you know, showing a spirit of Christ when you're there. And so in the midst of that, you know, I think my questioning for that is so many people who find themselves in a place of having to find a new church, they have that emotion, they move through that space differently, whether it be the pastor, whether it be, you know, the members, because they basically find it easier to get angry. But I love the fact that you're not angry, because when you're not angry, you allow the love that God has placed in you to abound, and I think that is where the tears come from. So I thank you for being just so real in that moment. I think that's a very important part, that if you find that you are at a place of having to change churches, your heartstrings are still there, and that's normal, and that's common and it is easier to just get mad. But if you're going to lead with Christ, you have to walk through that emotion because understand that God will meet you there and God will help you there and, like you said, the way that God normally goes is to have you pray for that person. And so that is I mean. That is that's great. That is great. You are where you are supposed to be.

Desiree Brown: 53:08

So at this point, from what I'm hearing, we are going to shut it down and we're going to do a part two, because we're not finished yet. We still have some questions to go. So the question is have the Browns found a new church? We wanted to get to the end of it, but because of Desiree and all of her pent up emotions, we were not able to get to the end of it. So we will be doing a part two. We were not able to get to the end of it, so we will be doing a part two.

Desiree Brown: 53:35

But I would be interested in for anyone that views this post, please, if you find yourself in this position, or even in another position, please post your questions in the comments. We want to hear from you because we want to provide a place, a safe place for you to get the answers and even if you don't get your answers, at least a safe place where you can hear someone else's perspective so that hopefully we can navigate this life thing together, because when life start it ain't easy. So, desiree, you want to say anything before we go?

Eyvette Allen: 54:28

I think, something we did not say, but I know that a lot of people have experienced this idea or this experience of church hurt.

Desiree Brown: 54:31

We're going to get to that one. I do have that question, but go ahead.

Eyvette Allen: 54:33

Yeah, this idea of church hurt, and so I think this is not a it's not an uncommon or unfamiliar experience for a lot of people, and we've experienced it in different ways, not just in our last situation, but in previous situations as well. And so I think but the thing that I want people to remember that when they're going through these experiences, these are experiences that happen human to human, and humans are faulty on our best days, right, so we're not perfect, and so it doesn't. I don't want people to, as they're going through that experience, to begin to be angry with God. Yes, absolutely.

Eyvette Allen: 55:18

Or if you are, talk to God about it, let him help you work through those emotions, let him heal you of those things, because it's a real, it's a very real thing and it's very common, unfortunately. So I guess, I guess I want to say that, although there are a lot of emotions there and there are a lot of questions and there was a lot of are you sure God? It was like, are you sure that we should come? We should leave Atlanta to come here, but then it was like, are you sure we should leave? There was all of that stuff.

Eyvette Allen: 55:47

The thing that remains is that I'm still actively seeking and following after whatever God is saying, and that is what helps me in so many ways. It gives me confidence, it gives me courage, it gives me, um, peace to be able to know, like, okay, where I'm moving. How I'm moving is because God is, is is asking me to, to do these different things. So, um, I guess I wanted to leave with that because I I felt it was important enough to at least address, um, I didn't know we were gonna talk about in part two, so y'all gotta come back from part two. Continue to like, subscribe, share this podcast. Yeah, we want to hear from you all of the things that you said. Have you, have you been through situations where you had to change, and it may have been like great, it may have not been great the experience, but we want to hear, hear what you have to say. So, thank you. Do you want to close this out?

Desiree Brown: 56:44

oh, no, go ahead.

Eyvette Allen: 56:45

Thank you for joining us for this episode of conversations at the. Well, we will see you next time. Bye.