Eyvette Allen: 0:00

So welcome everyone. We are back with Conversations at the Well. I'm here again with the Browns and we are continuing the question that we had last time in a part two series called have they Found a Church? So please come back with us, prop your feet up, get comfortable and we will continue this conversation.

Vernon Brown: 0:24

Don't you get too comfortable in that chair over there?

Eyvette Allen: 0:27

That first time I was there. That time I got this All right. Welcome back to Conversations at the Well, and we are here with the Browns. Say hello. Hey Again, I am in this seat. Who?

Desireè Brown: 0:41

are you? I don't think you introduced yourself last time.

Eyvette Allen: 0:43

Yes, I am Yvette Allen. I am Vernon Brown's mother and they are doing a series called have I Found a Church, and last episode we had gone through a lot of the emotions that went along with them going through this search of leaving their church and then searching for another one. And when we left during last episode, desiree was basically bawling because church hurt is real. Church hurt is absolutely real and I don't think that that's what God had in mind. So I want to start with church hurt this week, in hopes that maybe we can get through this and then we can go ahead and find out if the Browns have found a new church. So, church hurt. I want to ask you guys and I believe on this one we'll start with Vernon I want to ask you guys, as far as church hurt goes, how are your kids handling it? Because we often think about ourselves, but our babies are very important and yours are smaller, but they do still have little feelings. So how are the kids handling it?

Vernon Brown: 2:07

That's a good question, I think for the longest time after we left, because we I don't think we didn't talk to them about it before we left either.

Eyvette Allen: 2:18

How old are they? I did.

Desireè Brown: 2:20

You did.

Vernon Brown: 2:21

Aaron is four and Vernon is six, about to be seven, yes, mm-hmm. But so, okay, you talked about it. I didn't talk to them about it before then. So as we've been like kind of visiting different churches, you kind of hear like kind of what they're looking for. So I didn't like that church because it was long or it was boring or they didn't have a children's church or stuff like that. So I think because we were the children's church like teachers and we're still their parents, it wasn't, it's not, hasn't been that much of a change for them. Um, but yeah, I'm interested to see what you got to say yeah, um, they process things so differently, especially at that age.

Desireè Brown: 3:04

And, um, I don't know exactly, I think they, I know they remember Um, and then I'll be like, are we going to our old church, are we going to a new church? And so there, I don't know what to make of that question. I don't know if that's like we want to go back to our old church or if it's just a question of where are we going today, kind of thing. I think they have. I think they have enjoyed some of the elements of some of the other churches that we have been to, mainly the elevator they were really enamored with the elevator the small things.

Vernon Brown: 3:43

And then the one where they went to the playground, to the playground, the playground was like a big deal and so I don't know.

Desireè Brown: 3:51

I think they've just been rolling with it. But you got to understand our kids because of who their parents are and we have. Since Vern was born, in Vern's first four years he lived in three different houses. He just rose with it, aaron less he's gone to many different schools. Yeah, he's gone to a lot of schools Like probably closer to 10.

Vernon Brown: 4:19

When we were going through the daycares and stuff the primrose and all of them, it was a lot Greater. Atlanta Christian Academy. He went through a lot.

Desireè Brown: 4:28

So change is just. I think Vern is kind of like alright, you know, we move on. Aaron, it's been a little bit more. We haven't made as many changes since he's been here or he was just too little to remember those things. So I think they kind of just roll with the punches. I don't think it's been traumatic or dramatic for them and we didn't let them in on a lot of the stuff that was going on before we, like when we were making the decision to leave. They, I think you know kids pick up on a lot though. So I think they were largely unaware of some of the things that we were experiencing. But I did talk to them before we left, but it was very soon before we left. I said you know, guys, were this is? I think it was like we're going to be leaving Harvest of Hope, this is going to be our last Sunday, um, that kind of thing. I don't know if they grasped like the magnitude of what was happening.

Desireè Brown: 5:29

But I did tell them and I try to do that because I don't like. I try to respect them as their people. They're little people, but they're people and I just didn't want them to be like what is going on when we start going to other places. So I tried to give them a heads up that, hey, this is going to be our last time here, so that moving forward they wouldn't just be very confused.

Eyvette Allen: 5:51

I know that last Sunday I actually visited with you guys at a church and as I was sitting there, aaron was sitting on my right side, vernon on the left, and they sang a song and Aaron, he sat there, he's like Granny. They used to sing that song at my old church and he told me. He said I miss my old church and it kind of pulled at my heartstrings because so often as adults, we make decisions. As adults, we make decisions but we don't really understand how it impacts the next generation. And I just think that in any situation of church, we have to start thinking about this. Next generation is viewing what church is and the way we handle it, whether right or wrong, it will definitely impact them. And so I just think it's sad that, if I have to protect my child from your actions, that there is almost that's a sad moment in the house of God, but okay, all righty. So then with that.

Eyvette Allen: 7:11

So how do you think a pastor should handle church hurt? What would have made it better for you guys as you exited out? Let's start with Desiree, because she was most emotional in that. I'm emotional, You're not emotional. So, desiree, what would have made it better? What would that look like?

Desireè Brown: 7:39

What would that exit look like for you to say this, even in leaving this is a good church um, okay, so for me, for me, I think there were a couple things that could that would have helped, okay, one of those things would have been the simple question of what's going on? Why are you leaving? That would have been a good question after two years.

Eyvette Allen: 8:09

You didn't ever get that question. No, why do you think? I mean, do you think it was more about you or more about them not being in the place to ask the question?

Desireè Brown: 8:21

I wish I had an answer for that. I don't know I it was okay, it was different, it was not. It was kind of odd to me. Okay, the question wasn't asked of why we were leaving. Um, it was, I heard you were leaving. I said yes, I'm waiting for the question of, like, why?

Eyvette Allen: 8:43

you know, tell me and that was it.

Desireè Brown: 8:46

Yeah, pretty much it was. I was trying to remember what the I was like yeah, we, we, we heard from God that we've been released, and it was just kind of left right there. There was no, no, no additional conversation. So I would have liked some like, just just on the on the strength of the relationship itself, to be asked like what's going on? Um, or even why do you think that you're being, you've been released? Like what do you think that you've just, you're just done here, like you finished what you're supposed to do? Was there other components, an exit interview? Almost?

Desireè Brown: 9:24

Maybe that would have been, um, something that would have helped. I mean, I don't, I wouldn't expect that, just like as a general member per se, like if I was just attending and I just was leaving, but to have served in the pretty major capacities at at the church, I would have expected those questions to be asked. So that's one thing, um I he talked about this in the first part and I'm I kind of teeter on this as far as like if it would have been okay, but I think so just an acknowledgement, like it was never said to well, I don't, I don't know when it was ever brought up. It may have happened after we left of okay, you may have noticed that the Browns have left, but it was never that. Hey, the Browns have. The Browns are leaving, you know, to help prepare the people.

Desireè Brown: 10:20

Because I felt like we were waiting for our cue. We were waiting for his cue to say you know, for him to bring it up before we did, because it felt like we were waiting for our cue. We were waiting for his cue to say you know, for him to bring it up before we did, because it felt like it was going to be out of order for us to bring it up when he hadn't mentioned it, and so I would have appreciated just him being the one to make the announcement to the congregation that we were leaving, the announcement to the congregation that we were leaving. That didn't happen, even a I guess it was said behind closed door. I appreciate what you've done, but I just think like some type of behind whose closed?

Eyvette Allen: 10:55

door. It was just like a meeting with you. Yes, okay, okay.

Desireè Brown: 10:59

Okay, but even and he was kind of talking about the transition or what he would have expected in transition I asked, I said, hey, we're leaving. Do you, do you want to talk about this? And it was when, when we did meet, it was like, okay, I just need to know what the login passwords are. And I was like, do you have any other questions? Like, do you want to know anything else? It was very, very odd, um, and so I don't know.

Desireè Brown: 11:33

I do think that there was an experience that was happening on the other side that I don't have clarity on, and so I want to give grace that there was something happening that I just didn't understand. But in answering your question which I feel like I've gone all over the world to answer your question just some general curiosity, like just on, just because we have a relationship and it's a family relationship, like asking the questions of what's going on, why are you leaving? Some type of acknowledgement that we were leaving to the congregation before we left, maybe even a thank you it didn't even have to be, don't don't have to be presence or anything like that, but just like thank you for what you've done. That would have been, that would have been really nice. Yeah, I think that sums up. These are simple, right.

Eyvette Allen: 12:26

These are not like big thing. No, they're not. That's just being courteous.

Vernon Brown: 12:30

I think it's simple, but I also think, like from a from the other side, from a pastor's perspective it is it is difficult because I mean, he has texted you thank you, or like put it in the email when you're when you're helping them out with stuff or helping me out with stuff like hey, I really appreciate what you've invested. So I think I think there's two things you're talking about. There is the acknowledgement, but also acknowledgement in a way that a person would understand, almost like a love language conversation, like yeah, that makes sense, so what?

Eyvette Allen: 13:02

is her love language. What is that? What is? Her love language. What is her love language?

Vernon Brown: 13:07

oh no, I've been trying to figure it out my love language and one of my strongest words of affirmation.

Eyvette Allen: 13:12

So that tracks okay, yeah and you, as far as you know, church hurt, and what could a pastor do it? Oh, okay, so he ready now.

Vernon Brown: 13:29

So so, for me, specifically, the kind of person that I'm, that I am, which is odd, which I fully acknowledge yeah, I don't need your words after I decided to leave, like I could care less about your words I care about. I care more about who you are and more about who you are consistently. So you can, we can have a a. If we have a loving relationship for two years and you say nothing after the exit, I feel like I'd be pretty fine because our relationship still continues after I depart. But if, over two years, we don't have a relationship, um, and then you say nothing when we depart, I mean, I expect that, cause that's, that's the expectation.

Vernon Brown: 14:24

Why would I expect anything different? I think I would hope for something different, but I would be the fool to expect that this one decision is going to change who you are, who you've been talked about. Anything outside of ham will be out sunday or whatever. That's the extent of our conversation. Hey, here are the notes. Um, what songs are we singing? Why would I expect anything different when it's come to the end of the road?

Eyvette Allen: 14:50

so then let's let's look at the um perspective, that we're all human. So if you are in a church and, as Desiree stated, things are just crazy and there's no consistency and and um, and you have a lot of questions as a disciple of the church, is there any responsibility that you would have, or is it what should be done, I guess?

Vernon Brown: 15:37

And that's the grace she was talking about and the difficulty of, if you put yourself in the role of a pastor and say, how would I do things different, that it gets difficult to answer. Um, because if, if you, if a, if a listener takes their relationship with their pastor, chances are in most cases they don't know much about you.

Desireè Brown: 16:00

They don't know your love language they don't know what you expect.

Vernon Brown: 16:03

They don't know any of these things. So to expect for them to knock it out of the park while reeling and dealing with the fact that the support that they once had is no longer going to be there. You're expecting a lot from a human Like I need to put aside my feelings of. You're expecting a lot from a human Like I need to put aside my feelings of. Oh, my goodness, what am I going to do, assuming that that was there and still love you? Like that's hard.

Eyvette Allen: 16:28

That's a lot to ask. Is that not what Christ desires, though?

Vernon Brown: 16:32

It is Okay, okay, but Christ desires a lot from us that we fail at every day, and just being honest.

Eyvette Allen: 16:37

That's true.

Vernon Brown: 16:39

So I think there's a component of that, but I, to answer your question directly, I think it is a two way road. Um, I think there is a responsibility that people need to take on that, if you want a better relationship, that you communicate that, um. But once you've done that, then I think it's a responsibility of the receiver of that message to decide whether it's worth it to them to create that or to play a part in that, or worth it for them to say I don't want that and I think that's okay. Whatever you decide is okay. Does that make sense?

Eyvette Allen: 17:14

So, when it comes to church, do you think that pastors majority of them do you think they deal well with church hurt? Do you think, or I should say, do you think, they deal better with resolving church hurt or creating?

Desireè Brown: 17:32

OK, because OK, so I think I don't. I haven't been to pastor school, divinity school, whatever you want to call it been to pastor school, divinity school, whatever you want to call it. I haven't been there, but I I think a lot of what happens as a pastor is learned on the job because they can you can learn the bible forward and backwards, which is great, and you, I think that's a key element if you're going to be teaching. But but pastoring is a gift and it is a skill, like there's a lot that goes into it and people handling people, handling difficult situations, handling difficult personalities, handling regular personalities all of that is a lot and I don't think that there's a ton of training that happens for that. And so go ahead.

Vernon Brown: 18:25

So I love what you said, that there's a lot of on the job training. But what I would interject is that there is a lot of training going on. It's just that it's it's training of watching what's done versus teaching what's right. I think we have a lot of pastors that come up under the stewardship of pastors that aren't doing it right, that have failed, that are failing their people, either in preparation, studying, loving, caring about them, and so, even if they never profess that as a message of training, I do what I've seen and so now I do it, because that's that's how it's always been done.

Vernon Brown: 19:03

Well, you know, such and such is moving to another church. Well, let me tell, let me tell you, you got, you got a lot on your hands. You gossiping, yeah, and that's a normal thing. Or, um, I think there's a lot of pastoral norms that probably don't align with how God would Well, just what's been accepted as norms, that I don't think aligns with how God would desire for his sheep to be handled, but that's normalcy. I think if you were to talk to a pastor one-on-one, it would say well, that's just a common courtesy for a pastor to call another pastor to say, hey, this is about that particular sheep, but I don't know that Jesus is like oh, let me check you out, let me call your pastor, let me call the devil to see what I got coming over here. That's not it. But even if you think of that being seen as a courtesy, a non-biblical act, something that God despises, is something that we esteem as a courtesy.

Vernon Brown: 20:08

And so I think, there is training happening, but it is leading us to repeat the failures of the past. The church hurts of the past.

Eyvette Allen: 20:18

So, then, as what I hear you saying is that, as a pastor, it may be wise to re-evaluate the standards that you have accepted as normalcy, because it may not align with the word of God.

Vernon Brown: 20:39

You can call it youth or inexperience, as I'm sure any pastor listening would say, but I think it is behoove you to reassess everything through your understanding of the scriptures that you believe in, because too often we accept the call and we accept that God is doing something new in our life and then decide that we're just going to do it the same way. Someone else that's been called has been taught.

Eyvette Allen: 21:08

Like if you look at in the Bible, like who was it Moses, and after Moses was Joshua.

Vernon Brown: 21:14

Like, I'm not going to do the same as I was with Moses. I will be with you, but I'm not working the same miracles, I'm not doing the same thing. So that manual that you got from him is cool. I'm not going to do the same as I was with Moses. I will be with you, but I'm not working the same miracles, I'm not doing the same thing. So that manual that you got from him is cool. I'm glad you have a relationship as a result of it. But behold, I do a new thing. So how can I do a new thing if you're just monkey? See monkey doing it and God never changes? So there's balance there. So we're not changing, okay there. So we're not changing, okay. Well, we're not gonna say that no, no, no, we're not changing everything, but just reassess with the holy spirit to say is this still what you want done in this?

Vernon Brown: 21:44

place I know we've done it for a hundred years. Is this still what's required of your sheep?

Desireè Brown: 21:50

I think that's probably I would imagine that's probably the most difficult thing, because you can't, you can't read a book, don't will? The only book that you can read in order to really know how to deal with people in your who you have been placed as leader of, is the Bible. That's really the only true book. That's going to get. Well, I mean, there are other books that can kind of help guide you a little bit here and there, but even those are written by people and there are opinions and things that are, in sort, inserted. So you have to be extremely discer bit here and there. But even those are written by people and there are opinions and things that are inserted, so you have to be extremely discerning.

Vernon Brown: 22:24

You have to be very connected.

Desireè Brown: 22:26

You have to be constantly in prayer.

Vernon Brown: 22:28

And that part because, honestly, if you want to be honest, rightfully or wrongfully so, it's a group of people called the Pharisees that knew the book of the time.

Eyvette Allen: 22:36

That's right, Absolutely.

Vernon Brown: 22:38

That's right Now, granted you can say, now that we have the new testimony and recognition of Jesus Christ, that we should be able to get by with just the book. But I believe it's the book plus the spirit. The spirit will tell you what that person sitting across from you have never said. They've been hurt in their last three churches. You have no way of knowing and just your knowledge of the word isn't going to tell you that the Holy spirit may say deal with them kindly, yeah, and so it's the enormity and this is probably why he doesn't like run up.

Desireè Brown: 23:06

He's not super excited. Oh God, I got this call, but it don't feel like this is like a burden, because it is, because it is, it is.

Desireè Brown: 23:14

Because there is a higher, there is more that is required for people who are in leadership and the Bible supports that all through and through. Like there are different levels of accountability and, as a leader, like it's so easy to fall behind, it's so easy to get caught up in things, it's so easy to get distracted, it's so easy to just rely on the methodology of the things that you've seen and you weren't like, maybe officially taught, but you've learned just by observing.

Vernon Brown: 23:46

Perfect example. So I've been teaching for however many years, but I've always taught with notes when I first started teaching.

Vernon Brown: 23:55

I was teaching on zoom. I had my notes over here, the camera here and I can see the people over there. And so fast forward to teaching from the pulpit. I have my notes. Um, it started out with paragraphs and then it went to bullets, but I've always taught from my notes, cause I just I don't, I didn't I know what I studied and I don't want to get anything wrong by going off script. Well, towards the end, I was being challenged to if you only teach what you wrote, is there room for the Holy Spirit? And one could say, well, the Holy Spirit was there when I wrote it, but that would have been my argument.

Desireè Brown: 24:32

It would have been a good argument. I could argue that.

Vernon Brown: 24:34

But then also, you know, much of what I write personally is me like oh, this that makes, that makes sense. Yeah, that that's going to go. Well, this goes here. That's why I have to read it, Cause that's real good, but in the moment it may not be what's necessary in the spirit. So that was learned, never taught, but learned on the job. But where I was getting to was okay. I have my notes because I need to know that I'm prepared.

Desireè Brown: 25:05

I have full expectation that Holy Spirit got my back, but I got my backup plan If we, if we, if we, being honest, as where I am, I dare not go up there feeling unprepared even though I have full faith that the Holy Spirit is going to be there for me where I am.

Vernon Brown: 25:18

I need to have it Right, and so the change is is it's still anointed and blessed if it was notes? But is God calling me to change what was normal, what was working, to do something different for where he was calling me to? Yeah, wow, but that comes by, just it's working. But do I need to reassess it? Do I need to go to my mom and say, oh, that was good, but nah, holy Spirit wasn't in it?

Desireè Brown: 25:43

Like, do I need to submit myself to counsel to say that's what I was going to ask you like how did you come to that? Was it God said, like you like heard from God? Or in prayer it was revealed? I don't know? In whatever process you have, did it come that way? Or was it from counsel? Was it from people who you um, who you like trust that said, hey, have you?

Vernon Brown: 26:08

I don't think they're different, I think I can hear directly from god but also I also believe there are times when I hear from god through people.

Eyvette Allen: 26:15

Yeah, and I reject both okay, so we're on our second podcast, part two, two, and we're asking the question do the Browns have a new church home? So that is going to be the question on the table.

Vernon Brown: 26:40

Right after this word from our sponsor.

Eyvette Allen: 26:43

If it's no, then please tell me what it is that you're looking for. If it's yes, please tell me why. What stood out to you to make the church if you've chosen the choice? We do need some sponsors, though we do yeah, sponsors anyway.

Desireè Brown: 27:07

Okay, so we have a church home. We have a church home. This is a recent development. We're very happy, very excited. Thank god for it, because, um, we really wanted a church home. I really want.

Vernon Brown: 27:23

He was like I wanted that's another topic for another day. I was comfortable being churchless and homeless and nomad, oh Lord.

Eyvette Allen: 27:30

My wife wanted a church, so I had to go out and find a list. Thank the Lord for your wife. Yes, oh, we got to do that episode?

Vernon Brown: 27:36

How do we find it? But anyways, go ahead.

Desireè Brown: 27:38

Yeah, so why was that church the choice?

Vernon Brown: 27:41

Why was that church the?

Desireè Brown: 27:42

choice. Choice is okay, so we went to. I feel like I have to tell part of that story. Can I start it off? Go ahead commentary.

Vernon Brown: 27:52

So upon leaving yeah, and getting confirmation of leaving, the question was like where we, where's we gonna go? The first time we that we were told that we were released, she asked no more questions. Okay, because this one came through her and I was like which you need to ask some more questions.

Vernon Brown: 28:10

So then, when we got confirmation, she asked like well, how will we know where we're supposed to go? And the lord said that my spirit will be very evident there, or my presence will be evident there. Wow, but that was it. I was like you should have asked more questions, but that was all she got anyways.

Desireè Brown: 28:22

So we um you'll see me in everything. You'll see me in everything.

Vernon Brown: 28:26

So we started looking and honestly I think I kind of led the search. I just went out and kind of looked at a bunch of churches. I made a huge list and just started. Sounds bad to say, but I'll be honest. Grading them based upon, like this is it looks like they excel here, excel there, looks like they fall short here. They may have a children's ministry, may have a marriage ministry, small groups, things like that that matter, those kinds of things, um, they matter to us.

Vernon Brown: 28:50

Yeah, big church, small church, black church, white church, multicultural church, all of those things were in there, and so we started searching around at different churches you did not just look for african-american churches, you looked everywhere, really okay yeah and just as context, I don't know because a lot of folks may just know us from here, but our previous church, before our last church, was a multicultural church.

Eyvette Allen: 29:12

Oh, okay.

Desireè Brown: 29:14

And we've been to majority white churches, like we've had the gamut black churches, white churches, mostly white, and then like more multicultural churches, and so we aren't afraid of any of those spaces okay, the spirit of god can be in all of those places um my personal thoughts are that the spirit of well heaven is gonna look real diverse and so, you know, be able to worship with a lot of different types of people.

Desireè Brown: 29:42

That's totally with in my comfort zone, because that's how I plan to live my um eternity. So so, yeah, so that was, it was a consideration, but it wasn't like it wasn't a huge deal, it wasn't a that was not our deal breakers, but can I jump in? So one of the the interesting things about it was when we made this list, this was based on, like our ideals. Okay, so you know, do you want, like what kind of music should they play and what kind of, what kind of ministry should they offer, and like how big should it be, and all of these different things.

Desireè Brown: 30:21

But the funny part about it is that after we have visited a actually it didn't take us very long, maybe after we had visited three churches we kind of went back to the drawing board and was like, huh, you know what? I really don't think any of those things matter. I don't think any of that matters. I think the only thing that matters is that God says that this is the place where I'm, this is the place I want you and the Holy Spirit is there. That's really the only things that mattered. And, as we were reflecting, or like when we would come home, we'd be like, well, you know, that was, that was good, I liked it. You know, I could see us maybe going there. It was. It was one church I actually really liked, um, but I was like I'm not quite sure. I didn't feel like that that was where God was putting us, and I also couldn't see where we would be able to serve in a impactful way, cause we knew that that was also going to be a thing.

Vernon Brown: 31:18

And where we were a little bit different is I was not well, I mean, I think in the back of my head it was I was looking for a place to serve, but I am a hundred percent Okay Not doing anything. And so and I just I never want to be in a place where I'm looking like looking at churches or for churches, and like, okay, where can I fit, where can I fit, how can I? I don't, I don't want that energy, I don't feel like that's good energy. So I and what I was looking for was like I care less, Like I don't want that to even be a part. If I could just sit down and just go to church on Sunday morning and go home, I am happy.

Desireè Brown: 31:56

I felt that was unrealistic.

Vernon Brown: 31:59

Maybe, but that was the fantasy land I wanted to live in.

Desireè Brown: 32:03

Fantasy land? Definitely fantasy land. Definitely only because I felt it was unrealistic. Just to add context, because of as our church life has gone on, evolved, grown, whatever it in it, literally in every church that we have been in since well, most of the churches we have been in, we have served in some capacity, whether it's as a Sunday school teacher or children's church teacher or like it's been progressive, and I don't think that that was something that we could forget. We, we have, we're, we're in service. That's just one of the things that we do is not just to join and be able to sit in a seat for him maybe, but it's not to join.

Desireè Brown: 32:48

You are finished, you have done all I've asked you to do. He didn't say you were finished. So we? I just knew that there was more to it than just sitting in a seat and coming in on a Sunday and leaving right after. It just doesn't work like that for us. You passed that baby, you just passed it. So, anyway, you passed that baby, you just passed it. So anyway, those were the. Those became the main thing. Is the holy spirit there and does god want us to be there? How are we on?

Desireè Brown: 33:13

time okay so when we visited the church that we ultimately joined um, it was so weird.

Eyvette Allen: 33:24

It was so strange go ahead what you want to tell the story? No, I just. We don't have much time. Okay, let me hurry up okay, so it was.

Desireè Brown: 33:33

It was strange because it didn't have any of the things that were like on our list. It's like no children's ministry there was like no, I mean they had a choir but it, you know, it wasn't just like it didn't all those boxes but but felt the presence of the holy spirit and it so, so much, to the point where we left and I was like huh, that was strange, like it doesn't have everything but it has the thing like I kind of want to go back and check it out.

Desireè Brown: 34:03

And it was. There were obvious places to serve there. It was just. It made us want to go back. So we went back and it was even better the next time and the spirit was absolutely present. And then we went back to the next time and it was even more present. I was like okay, all right. And then we'd had a meeting with the pastor and his wife and you know we really enjoyed our conversation. They were very open with us. We were open with them about our experience and it just felt like okay. And when God said that you'll see me in all of it, I was like huh, I think I'm seeing you in all of this. So it became evident and that's what I think ultimately made us decide I going to be quiet because you're looking over here at me with these side eyes. Go ahead, just talk. I feel rushed. I don't like it.

Eyvette Allen: 34:55

Did I answer your question? No, you didn't. She did. What was the question? The question was what was it about this place that made you say I can be a part of this?

Vernon Brown: 35:08

for for me it was just all I was looking for. It was just God said his presence gonna be there, so I could care. That's how I feel. Is this it or not? Like it sounds really bad but that's how I approached it like I I don't care is this where I'm supposed to be or not, because I don't. I just want to be in the right spot.

Desireè Brown: 35:30

He didn't want to waste time.

Vernon Brown: 35:31

I don't want to waste time. I want to be looking all like is this it or not? And if not, let's move on, and if so, it's very it's. God gave us rules, so how you feel about it don't really matter.

Eyvette Allen: 35:42

Like I hope I like it, but you don't really care, so it was it Like?

Vernon Brown: 35:45

I hope I like it, but eh, you don't really care At the end of the day.

Eyvette Allen: 35:47

Yeah, that's true.

Vernon Brown: 35:48

So it was very like, just how do I get this confirmation? And I think the amazing part of God is he protected us from ourselves and a lot of the places that we would think that we would want to be in were great, great ministries. I'm sure they do amazing things, but on that particular Sunday, as we experienced, and not everybody else he was not there.

Desireè Brown: 36:09

And it's not to say they were bad, I'm sure people get saved and there's fruit that's everywhere.

Vernon Brown: 36:13

But he did what was necessary for us to know. This is nice, but it's ain't it. And so I think that that guiding and prod was really impactful is when meeting them and going out to lunch with them, just from the pastor's perspective, like seeing his heart, like we want a lot of stuff for our senior pastor, but just he was talking and just how his heart was moved just by talking about being able to help and support people's salvation and that being so moving to him, like that's what his why was, and that's something that I admire and something that, quite frankly, I don't have like that's not.

Vernon Brown: 36:57

That's not me, naturally, and so I always want to be led by someone with something that I admire, that I feel like I can take from our experience, and I think that would be it.

Eyvette Allen: 37:06

Okay, okay, and I think that would be it. Okay, okay, and so with that, let me just cause we have to wrap up at this point, so let me just finish up by saying a few things. As far as the church that you chose, I have had the experience of going there and I must say I definitely felt the spirit of God when I went there, and so I think it's good. I really do think it's good. I can't wait to see what God does. I also want to just take time out to say I saw you in your previous church. I saw you serve, I saw you be faithful. I saw you in your previous church. I saw you serve, I saw you be faithful, I saw you stand, I saw you do what God had called you to do, and so, if no one else tells you, I am so proud of the way the two of you have stood, walked through it, maintain the integrity of God through it, because it ain't easy. And so I realized that and you guys are, you guys are young, and it's um, it's hard. It's hard to be in a place where God is and you not see him or you not experience him the way he wants you to experience him. So it takes a lot, and so to be able to stand through that stand faithfully.

Eyvette Allen: 38:31

I know for you, vernon, you were actually teaching online before you got there. So your experience, although it's two years here, you were already in by was it one or two years? Yeah, so you're looking at four years of faithful service. I have never seen you not show up. I have never seen you not be prepared. So, even in the midst of the turmoil and the tossing, know that you have done what God has called you to do. If you question that, god has sent a mother here to tell you you have done what God has called you to do, and so he is proud of you and Desiree All right next topic.

Eyvette Allen: 39:19

Oh, wait a minute here and Desiree with um, the women's ministry, with the prayer calls, with the women's ministry, with the prayer calls which you actually created, and you were the one that was getting up six o'clock and understand that six o'clock every Friday morning because we have people on the East Coast that also tuned in and so we had to come up with a time that was good for them as well as good for us. So 6 am every Friday morning, this girl never missed, unless she was not capable of being there, which means her job had her somewhere else where she would be doing something else. You showed up. You did the women's ministry faithfully Every month. You did the women's ministry faithfully every, every, every month. You did the women's ministry.

Eyvette Allen: 40:10

So understand that you have served well. You were in Sunday school. You were there first and foremost. You were there for church. You have been there. I mean with the finances. When you came in, the finances were a mess. You took the gifts that God has given you and you served well and you left it in a good place. Don't question whether or not you did what you were supposed to do. You should have had at least someone to say thank you. But in the event that you didn't, I want to say thank you for what you've done. You served well. I am proud of you.

Eyvette Allen: 40:52

So, as you guys go forward, it is bittersweet that you know you're not there, but understanding that God has a purpose, god has a plan and God is taking you to where your destination is, and I don't know what it, what it'll be. I pray that I'll be here to see the journey, but you just don't know. But I know that if you keep God first, you will have nothing to worry about because God has your back. You will have nothing to worry about because God has your back. So, with that, conversations at the well gets a little heavy sometimes, but life gets a little heavy sometimes. Life is always lifing.

Eyvette Allen: 41:50

So again, I just I just ask if you have questions that you want to hear us discuss, even if you want them to be on the panel, because I like it but definitely put it in the comments. We look at all the comments that come forward. We discuss everything. I like to think that they're open book. We thank you for tuning in. We so love the support that you guys are giving us. Share this with a friend If a friend is going through and they're looking for a church home. Just share it with them so that they can understand they are not alone. Is there anything that you guys want to say as you close out, because it is your podcast?

Desireè Brown: 42:21

I don't know if we're going to invite her back. We both are crying.

Eyvette Allen: 42:27

This may be the last time you see her. Both of you guys are crying.

Desireè Brown: 42:30

I don't know if I like this um no, this is a. I think it was a really great conversation. It's a conversation that people typically have behind closed doors or not at all, and so thank you for your thoughtful questions. Yes, getting to the crux of the issue, even though it made us cry, but um, y'all, um, thank you for joining us for conversations at the well, we'll see you next time. Like subscribe, share and all those good things. Yes, bye.